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Sanguinarian22

Heated 10-15 Competition

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10 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

No, I did not miss it, thank you. As I said, several times, finals culture is only a marginal cost. It does not apply to all members. It does not apply to those kids who choose, for whatever reasons, to remain with a single corps. It applies to enough members, however, that it creates a headwind for a corps that, if it could be lessened somewhat, the corps would have a better chance of competing another step or two up the ladder.

 If we want to discuss DCI discussing some form of sensible, reasonable implementation of a Transfer Policy between competing teams ( Corps ), then I'd love to have that discussion on why it might be needed. However, I recognize that there is virtually no appetite to even consider what most youth sports leagues have, so its a non starter... for even further discussions on it. So sure, Corps like Pacific Crest conpetiting in the World Class Division vs, Blue Devils is not going to ever have a snowballs chance in hell of ever successfully competing on the competition field with the Blue Devils... neither will the Mandarins. And changing the Finals format from 12 to 16 or whatever most certainly won't change that " DCI Culture " either, imo

Edited by BRASSO

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3 minutes ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

But I also know that, even if we did run 25 corps onto the field on Saturday, the staff and members at Pioneer would still be doing the amazing hard work they're doing. 

I don’t disagree, I hear you. I think you're example of Pioneer is much different than say Mandarins/Colts/Academy, etc. since they’re (currently) much farther away. I know they’re all working really hard.  

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19 hours ago, goodmello said:

It's super hard to put together rankings at this point.  Only a few shows in and corps are competing from the west coast to the midwest.

From what I HAVE seen myself, I'd say that Mandarins are EXTREMELY likely to make finals.  If I had to guess, I'd say they're going to knock out Madison.

When it comes to a second shakeup, I believe Colts have a better shot than Academy.  To create another upset, Blue Stars would likely have to be taken out (even though I personally think Phantom shouldn't be scoring what they are right now...)

I'm watching the Colts/Blue Stars very closely in the midwest.  I hope the gap narrows very soon!

 I'd agree with much of what you posted here, goodmello. Its early. Mandarins came out for the 1st week looking very ready, and very strong. I like their chances to finally make Finals for their first time too. But there are a number of Corps around them that are very strong this season too. So it should make for an exciting summer of competition !

Edited by BRASSO

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1 hour ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

assymetric cost that falls heaviest on the corps with the smallest audition numbers, the most fragile finances, the worst gate times and thus the least rehearsal time, and the most turnover.

I hope you realize that THESE corps were the MOST OPPOSED to your idea in the off-season vote...I don't blame them for not wanting any special treatment in this regard.

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4 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

No.  The 1987 top 12 all made finals in 1988.

correct - 1988 was the 1st year all 12 corps repeated in finals

 

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1 hour ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

Anyway, I have hijacked this thread. My apologies to the OP. I'll drop it for now. Maybe the subject will come up in a couple more years.

No worries, my aim was to start a conversation on something a little out of the norm. I would say that was still accomplished! 

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14 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 Thats a matter of opinion. Try getting 15 Corps or so Corps out onto the football field at Finals retreat, and see if theres no reason right there alone to keep it at 12. The 12 there are out there now are all bunched up tight and close, with little room as it is. Adding more Corps to the Finals Retreat does have logistical considerations that would need to be adequately addressed. 12 is a good number for post DCD/ BluRay sales too. Besides, there is little to no support for increasing the Finals numbers from 12, even among the Corps Directors found most seasons just outside the TOP 12 themselves, ie Colts, Troopers, Mandarins, etc and so forth. Whenever a  proposal is up for consideration  at DCI Rules Congress to increase the Finals numbers of 12 Corps, these Corps , among with all the other Corps Directors, vote it down by considerable margins.

Well, not that difficult to solve.......BOA seems to know how to do it for retreat......

http://www.timesnews.net/mediaFiles?type=image&url=/image/2016/11/13/D-B-2016-Indy-finals-awards-IMG-9412-JPG.JPG&caption=Dobyns-Bennett High School and 12 other Grand Nationals Bands of American finalists at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis Saturday night. D-B finished 13th nationwide in its first finals there.

DCI seems to allot 10 yards per retreat Corps, seems pretty simple to change that, as BOA has in the exact same facility.

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2 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said:

To clarify: my lonely campaign is not waged for the benefit of fan convenience. It is waged for the overall good of the activity by changing, in a subtle but I think important way, the culture of membership.

And, yes, of course it's not about a participation trophy. Someone throws out this canard every time the subject comes up. Look, there's still going to be one, and only one, champion at the end of the night. There is going to be only one corps with the trophy, one corps performing an encore. First place is still first place; the sting of second place is still the sting of second place. The shock of a defending champ dropping to 5th place is still the shock of a defending champ dropping to 5th place. 12th is still 12th; 13th is still 13th; and last place is still last place. The corps that finishes 6th will still burn with the sting of finishing 0.05 behind the 5th -place corps with which they had been trading places all season. The corps that finishes 14th on Saturday will shed tears because they were 13th on Friday. In fact, by extending the season one more night into Saturday, you produce one more night of losers. I don't buy the participation-trophy argument.

Limiting the last night of the season to an arbitrary number of corps adds little to the competitive fire of the activity, in my view, while it burdens the long-term viability of drum corps with an assymetric cost that falls heaviest on the corps with the smallest audition numbers, the most fragile finances, the worst gate times and thus the least rehearsal time, and the most turnover. "Finalist fever" is not a profound cost; it is not the single most important reason why a  corps struggles to gain footing. But it is a cost in the margins that imposes a degree of handicap, a degree that, at least, could be lessened by getting rid of a Saturday ritual that provides, as far as I can see, no real benefit.

limiting who gets there DRIVES the competitive fire. Who remembers 27th place? Maybe 27th place. But people remember the top 12. 

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30 minutes ago, JAZZER said:

 I suppose it looks like they could squeeze 14, 15 in if DCI wanted too squeeze them in. But whenever a proposal to increase the Finals Top 12 to some expanded configuration comes up, as said, even Corps typically found in the 14th to 18th or so placement ranges vote it down. DCI since 1972 on several occasions has increased both the maximum numbers of marchers a Corps can go out with in competition ( from 135 in earlier years ) to even increase in age eligibility.. So its not like DCI Corps Directors are adverse to increasing the numbers on things. But overwhelmingly, they believe that Finals Top 12 is fitting. Interestingly enough, even in the pre DCI Years, when there were far more Corps in national competitions, the Vets Organzations National Championships, the World Open National Championships, The Canadian National Championships, and all the others tended to limit it to Top 12 for Finals. We've never had a higher number for Finals in Drum Corps, when they've had  prelims as a qualifyer. I see no reason to expand it now beyond 12, when there are far fewer Corps today than in some previous era's of the Drum Corps movement. Current Corps Directors in DCI agree with this 12 as a Finals Night qualifyer as well. Heck, if there is going to be a discussion on changing the number from the traditional 12, why not discuss if 10 or 8  might be best then, instead of 14 or 16 ? No, I don't support either.  12 seems just about right to me.

Edited by BRASSO

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