George Dixon

Best EARLY SEASON show/corps that ending up NOT winning?

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1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:

Yeah, I think it was surprising that they won, for sure. But perhaps not because people didn't think they had the goods to win....

Ok, what are the facts concerning the only ones who mattered? Let's see how many 'judges' thought they had the goods to win. Hmmmmm... Only 2 out of 7 judges thought they had the goods to win. And those 2 put the Scouts into first place overall. Here are the official 1988 Finals Caption Placements for the Scouts:
GE Brass 1st K. Turner
GE Perc 2nd J. Allison
GE Visual 2nd C. Williams
Perf Brass 3rd D. Hill
Perf Perc 3rd S. Koter
Perf Vis 1st G. Olivero
Perf Guard 3rd F. Morris

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19 minutes ago, Stu said:

Ok, what are the facts concerning the only ones who mattered? Let's see how many 'judges' thought they had the goods to win. Hmmmmm... Only 2 out of 7 judges thought they had the goods to win. And those 2 put the Scouts into first place overall. Here are the official 1988 Finals Caption Placements for the Scouts:
GE Brass 1st K. Turner
GE Perc 2nd J. Allison
GE Visual 2nd C. Williams
Perf Brass 3rd D. Hill
Perf Perc 3rd S. Koter
Perf Vis 1st G. Olivero
Perf Guard 3rd F. Morris

Heh... I remember a DCA title show back in the day that was won by a corps that didn't take any of the major captions. Might have won a sheet or two, I don't know... but no caption wins.

The other contending corps were up, down, here and there, on the scoresheets. LOL.

The corps I thought might have won... ended up tied for 4th. I was a 14-year-old kid, a fan in the stands. What did I know.  Then or now. :laughing:

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6 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:

Heh... I remember a DCA title show back in the day that was won by a corps that didn't take any of the major captions. Might have won a sheet or two, I don't know... but no caption wins.

The other contending corps were up, down, here and there, on the scoresheets. LOL.

The corps I thought might have won... ended up tied for 4th. I was a 14-year-old kid, a fan in the stands. What did I know.  Then or now. :laughing:

Sure adding up total score can yield 1st place for a corps that does not place 1st in a caption. It all depends on point spread within each caption. But please note that was not what I was addressing; it was the statement of who thought they 'had the goods' to win. And only 2 of the 7 judges thought they had the goods to win.

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6 minutes ago, Stu said:

Sure adding up total score can yield 1st place for a corps that does not place 1st in a caption. It all depends on point spread within each caption. But please note that was not what I was addressing; it was the statement of who thought they 'had the goods' to win. And only 2 of the 7 judges thought they had the goods to win.

Yes, I am aware of that. :tongue:

Or those two judges thought theScouts had the goods to win those judges' particular captions or subcaptions. Not necessarily their job to determine the overall winner, correct? 

Edited by Fran Haring
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39 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:

Yes, I am aware of that. :tongue:

Or those two judges thought theScouts had the goods to win those judges' particular captions or subcaptions. Not necessarily their job to determine the overall winner, correct? 

Correct. But the other five of the seven judges determined that they did not 'have the goods to win' within their captions. And that tidbit, and only that tidbit, was what I was pointing out to queen.

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Apparently, this morphed from the OT, to the 1988 Madison Scouts Topic, so DCP. LOL!!  :bleah:  :offtopic: :bigsmile:

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17 minutes ago, Jeffe77 said:

Apparently, this morphed from the OT, to the 1988 Madison Scouts Topic, so DCP. LOL!!  :bleah:  :offtopic: :bigsmile:

Me posting that SCV was one of the, if not the, best early season corps that year, combined with Scouts coming out of nowhere, yes I said it again, started us going down this rabbit trail. Blame it on George Hopkins, and it will be right back on topic!!! 😏

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1 hour ago, Stu said:

Correct. But the other five of the seven judges determined that they did not 'have the goods to win' within their captions. And that tidbit, and only that tidbit, was what I was pointing out to queen.

Point taken.

And I guess my point, with my post, was that it wasn't the first time a corps came kinda out of nowhere to win a championship.

My DCA example... the championship-winning corps caught up to a seemingly unstoppable, up-to-that-point unbeaten corps the weekend before the championship... then got the job done again at prelims and finals. That title show lives in infamy....LOL... with various folks disputing the result.

I didn't see the 1988 DCI title show, other than seeing a few corps on video, including the Scouts.... but I saw the Blue Devils at DCI East that year, and was convinced there was no way they would lose to anyone. So much for my powers of prognostication. :laughing:

Edited by Fran Haring

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6 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:

Flow between numbers and transitions wasn't as important back then as it was today. Concerto was a great piece, but I do agree it didn't fit thematically with Maleguena but few corps did thematic shows back then. It was in the period where themes were really starting to take off, but in '88 not every corps had a theme, and that was ok.

On your last line - of course the random draw was stopped after that season. I don't think anyone was surprised that experiment failed. Madison did NOT win because of a random draw. They won because they were arguably the best corps on finals night. But, of course, on finals night you had 1 happy corps and 11 angry or indifferent corps. Personally, I think it worked and created the most fairness in judging because it forced the judges to do their own reads rather than herd-judging (relying on past scores and trends). I think herd-judging is the biggest problem in today's judging system. We should see scores bouncing up and down and corps flip-flopping night-to-night but we really don't because of herd-judging. It's subjective and every judges read should be different from other judges. But that's neither here or now.

I don't know if the panel really thought in that instance, I'm one of the last to criticize adjudicators, but it just felt mailed in on that night.

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SCV 84/85/87/88. In ‘84 SCV won its home show for the first time ever over BD and tore up the competition in DATR, WW...come Semis, we’re late to the stadium and we relive the ‘82 prelims nightmare. We gave it away at Semis. Tim S. apologizes to us at 11:30 that night on behalf of the staff for screwing up two ways: (1) being late and (2) not writing a hard enough show because they utterly underestimated the talent we had because so many “long time” vets had gone off to do the Summer Olympics Band. He capped it with the best off-the-cuff inspirational speech and the result is the Finals tape. Observers told us our Finals run through was actually better. 

‘85..the long-time vets come back to age out. Different mind-set now. We have a slower start, but after another win at the home show off we went. Tore up everyone. DCI East: utter smackdown. Ran out of gas at Semis despite incredible horn show taking high brass by 0.4 and Visual too. Politics at play the next night when DA made a surprise appearance in the judging box; our judging tapes reflected it. GR is beyond livid, so much so he has white t-shirts made the following year with an “85” crossed out by a large red “circle slash”. 

’87 as described previously. GR is beaucoup livid. Surprisingly, he lives. 

 

Edited by TRacer
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