George Dixon

Best EARLY SEASON show/corps that ending up NOT winning?

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I am going to add 2006 BD. Probaly won't be the most popular choice in this thread. I remember BD firing on all cylinders to start the season going unbeaten until San Antonio when the Cavs finally caught them. Think BD beat the Cavs the first 3-4 head to head match ups. Though i could be wrong.   

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1 hour ago, George Dixon said:

go start a thread about 88 Mad :whip:

I was hoping to hear folks nominating best early season corps that ended up NOT winning - 2017 Coats for example?

Repost for your reading edification:

This rabbit trail got started when I stated that SCV came out strong in '88 (best early show that did not win imo because Scouts came out of nowhere) which indirectly impacted Regiment and how strong they came out in '89 (best early show that did not win imo due to SCV and th eir revamped version of their show subject). So it did originate with directly respondong to the topic.

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On 1/30/2019 at 7:43 PM, BrassFan17 said:

 Cavaliers 2011 comes to mind, they were undefeated for quite some time....

They were and I loved it. Funny you posted this, I was just thinking about that season. 2011 was another special season that had a bunch of great shows. The Cavaliers playing Jungle Tango was just something special!!!

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 2:51 PM, Stu said:

Thank you for the compliment. It took a while to pick out the head to head shows and especially figuring out the average weekly rankings. So, I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Starting on 7/16 they were ranked by averaging all scores nation wide as 7th, seven days later still 7th, seven days later 6th, seven days later back to 7th, seven days later 5th, (never besting any of the aforementioned corps head to head), and six not seven but six days later a huge leap in both score and rank to 1st, (only then beating them all in one swoop head to head), and again 1st the next day. So.... A) You do not see that as out of nowhere? and B) You truely think they made that large, huge, of improvement in six days when they were not able to do that at all in any of the previous five weeks?

I know people that saw that show live said it smoked, but I really think there was a serious overreaction to the second half of the program and there wasn't a real good thought put into the overall performance from start to finish, particularly the Concerto for Guitar and Orchestra. A thoughtful, intellectual piece, but not particularly dynamic and not really a classic, and did it really connect with the second half? No. And the whole segue from that ballad into Malaguena… it was like a bad upshift in a race car, no real smoothness and true segue into that end segment. Granted, the end rocked, but the whole package... sorry, no. I'll say it again, and people will argue it yet again, I believe it to be no coincidence they stopped doing the random draw for the final five after that little experiment and the result.

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8 hours ago, BigW said:

I know people that saw that show live said it smoked, but I really think there was a serious overreaction to the second half of the program and there wasn't a real good thought put into the overall performance from start to finish, particularly the Concerto for Guitar and Orchestra. A thoughtful, intellectual piece, but not particularly dynamic and not really a classic, and did it really connect with the second half? No. And the whole segue from that ballad into Malaguena… it was like a bad upshift in a race car, no real smoothness and true segue into that end segment. Granted, the end rocked, but the whole package... sorry, no. I'll say it again, and people will argue it yet again, I believe it to be no coincidence they stopped doing the random draw for the final five after that little experiment and the result.

I remember when I lost interest in who wins boxing world title belts. It was just after the Marvin Hagler v Sugar Ray Leonard fight. Hagler pounded Sugar Ray, pummled him, beat the ever loving snot out of him throughout the entire 12 round match. When the final bell rang it was so obvious that even Sugar Ray himself hugged Hagler, and the TV close up of that hug showed Sugar Ray mouthing the words, "You've won; man you beat me." Yet....

When the scoring from the judges was tallied it was Sugar Ray announced as the winner. Subjective scoring, not objective pounding hits, but subjective scoring put Sugar Ray on top. After that I still enjoyed the competitiveness and the sport itself, but no longer really cared who was The Boxing Champion Of The World! So why do I mention this?

Well, that same change of interest in who wins the world title in another 'subjectivly judged' contest also occured for me with DCI after the '88 season and was solidified after '89. From then on I came to truely accept that the Champion Of The World in DCI was based shearly on the collective opinions of subjective observation. And while I still enjoy the competitiveness within the activity, from '90 on I quite frankly no longer cared who won the DCI title each season.

Edited by Stu
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8 hours ago, Stu said:

Well, that same change of interest in who wins the world title in another 'subjectivly judged' contest also occured for me with DCI after the '88 season and was solidified after '89. From then on I came to truely accept that the Champion Of The World in DCI was based shearly on the collective opinions of subjective observation. And while I still enjoy the competitiveness within the activity, from '90 on I quite frankly no longer cared who won the DCI title each season.

I didn't reach that point until probably 3 years later after I had stopped marching and time to reflect. That being said, I couldn't agree more with you. I enjoy the shows now more than I ever did and am able to look at them with fresh eyes. That's the way I look at 2010 Phantom Regiments show. Although it wouldn't be a "Best early corps / show that didn't win," in my eyes, this is exactly the kind of corps/show that Stu is talking about. 

Strangely, that same feeling has followed me into other parts of my life. I played professional pool for a few years on tour. Kept up with who was who and where each of us was in each tournament, who played best on which kind of table, particulars of each player and their strengths etc. When I left the tour, I didn't pick up a pool cue for about 9 years. Now, I'm back playing better than I ever did but I'm doing it for fun. I enjoy the competitiveness of each tournament I play in, but I truly no longer care about winning. It's a much happier place to be. 

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On 2/9/2019 at 7:54 PM, BigW said:

I know people that saw that show live said it smoked, but I really think there was a serious overreaction to the second half of the program and there wasn't a real good thought put into the overall performance from start to finish, particularly the Concerto for Guitar and Orchestra. A thoughtful, intellectual piece, but not particularly dynamic and not really a classic, and did it really connect with the second half? No. And the whole segue from that ballad into Malaguena… it was like a bad upshift in a race car, no real smoothness and true segue into that end segment. Granted, the end rocked, but the whole package... sorry, no. I'll say it again, and people will argue it yet again, I believe it to be no coincidence they stopped doing the random draw for the final five after that little experiment and the result.

Flow between numbers and transitions wasn't as important back then as it was today. Concerto was a great piece, but I do agree it didn't fit thematically with Maleguena but few corps did thematic shows back then. It was in the period where themes were really starting to take off, but in '88 not every corps had a theme, and that was ok.

On your last line - of course the random draw was stopped after that season. I don't think anyone was surprised that experiment failed. Madison did NOT win because of a random draw. They won because they were arguably the best corps on finals night. But, of course, on finals night you had 1 happy corps and 11 angry or indifferent corps. Personally, I think it worked and created the most fairness in judging because it forced the judges to do their own reads rather than herd-judging (relying on past scores and trends). I think herd-judging is the biggest problem in today's judging system. We should see scores bouncing up and down and corps flip-flopping night-to-night but we really don't because of herd-judging. It's subjective and every judges read should be different from other judges. But that's neither here or now.

Edited by queenanne_1536

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:13 PM, George Dixon said:

go start a thread about 88 Mad :whip:

I was hoping to hear folks nominating best early season corps that ended up NOT winning - 2017 Coats for example?

I definitely thought that show was going to be a contender when I first saw it. I still don't agree with them falling to 5th on finals night in 2017.

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On 2/9/2019 at 10:48 AM, jwillis35 said:

You're killing me with all these facts. White flag up! 🙂

All kidding aside, I appreciate seeing all this again. I think my argument is more in line with queenanne_1536.  I don't question that the actual scores may have slotted Madison in 6th or 7th at times when they returned, but I do feel the judges took some time to get a better read on the Scouts. I had friends who saw them at DCM and, just as queenanne_1536 mentioned, thought Madison clearly won the show. I watched them dismantle a talented Garfield corps in Morgantown (my opinion of course) and was then shocked that they lost by .1.  If anything, I was surprised they were not beating Cavaliers, Garfield, and Phantom when they returned to tour. 

In the bigger picture I would imagine more people were caught by surprise with Madison in 1988.  That certainly supports the numbers you have shared. There were, however, many of us who saw them early before Europe and we knew then Madison was going to bring it big time come Finals if they got the show cleaned. I didn't pick them to win the title, but I had them 3rd after Morgantown. 

What a great corps they were. It is fun to talk about that show again. 

Yeah, I think it was surprising that they won, for sure. But perhaps not because people didn't think they had the goods to win. I remember Madison being screwed by the judges was a common theme back in those days. Can't say I agree with those who thought they were getting screwed (except '88 DCM finals), but when you consider BD, SCV and Garfield, it seemed impossible that anyone other than those three would win back then. That's why it was so surprising, because it actually happened - someone was good enough to beat all three of them on the final night. The last time someone other than those three won was '75, so a long long time. Thrilling, indeed. 

Edited by queenanne_1536

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To me from seeing this personally is the 1995 Blue Devils. Their show was complete fire out of the gate. By the Long Beach, Ca show, they scored 86 pts, nearly 8pts ahead of SCV. Now in retrospect, it may be that SCV fielded a weaker corps and had a slow start to the season, so in comparison, BD was light years away. That said, even following the scores and reports from others, they were firing on all cylinders. So to me, it was shocking they placed 2nd, then 3rd at Finals. I just think they peaked early and the Cadets and Cavaliers had room to clean up their shows. A few years back, the 1995 drum judges tape was released temporarily, it was not pretty. Just showed they needed to clean and/or their parts needed to be watered down. I noticed subsequent years, specifically 96-97, ScoJo would water down parts quite a bit as the season progressed. Who knows if there was a correlation. 

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