George Dixon

Best EARLY SEASON show/corps that ending up NOT winning?

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On 2/4/2019 at 8:01 AM, Ghost said:

Haven't searched yet, but how does 94 compare to 93?

Same score, same placement. Heck, even the same closer (Death Hunt). Two very good shows.

 

I'll also add Bluecoats 2015 and Cavaliers 2003 to my list too. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 4:11 PM, Stu said:

1988: SCV came out strong; Scouts came out of nowhere and won.

Then it indirectly impacted the next season.....

1989: Regiment came out strong; SCV did a re-work of their '88 show and won.

The Scouts did not come from nowhere. I saw Madison early in 1988 in Whitewater. It was clear even then that they were top 5 caliber. We simply did not get to see them grow through the month or so that they were in Europe. We didn't get a chance to compare their growth and changes to other top competitors in the early stages. But if you saw them early you knew they were top 5. How high they would place was really the question for me. When I saw them in Morgantown, WV in July (they lost to Garfield by .1 I think) I was convinced they would be top 3 come Finals. I still thought BD would win, and that SCV had the best chance to knock them off; but Madison cleaning and winning was no surprise. They were darn good with tons of talent that year. It was obvious from day 1.

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For me, the best early-season shows/corps that did not win were:

1. Star of Indiana 1993 (Cadets were amazing, too; but Star was a cut above everyone that year.)

2. Santa Clara 1987 - a killer great show that simply ran up against another killer great show. 

3. Phantom Regiment 1989 - They were so good early season. I thought they looked and sounded mid-July form when I first saw them in June. Had no problem with SCV winning, but my vote went to Phantom Regiment.

4. Madison Scouts 1995 - A super popular show with excellent performance. Ultimately took 4th, but they won the crowd BIG TIME!

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On 1/31/2019 at 2:05 AM, Jake W. said:

One of the best recent examples of a show that simply ran out of gas and had a design that was outperformed once the corps reached the final 2 weeks of the season. No room to grow. And, honestly, I maintain one of the best recent examples of how NOT to design a show; or, how to design a show that absolutely misses the mark of current trends despite trying to capitalize on them.

And, to be clear, this was a MONSTER corps that could have easily won if they had performed a better-designed program.

Counting to ten. The mystical powers of the number ten. Maybe if this show had been put on in the late 90s/early 00s, fine. But legit ten (ha) years too late. Their rivals that season at the top were BD's Ink that was deeply & intricately plotted, Bloo's dissertation on electronic subterfuge & a thickly, masterfully scored "Lost in the World", Crown's iconic hell to heaven journey that successfully crammed a massively lengthy trek into 13 minutes, with their best musical arrangements to date, and Cadets competed with....voiceovers that counted to ten? Eye rolls all around. I think the reason this still irks me so much almost four years later is that the music book and drill design were both SO GOOD...paired with a garbage, pedantic concept that literally no one was interested in. 

Not that the theme was the only problem --- I argued this point a lot on here in 2015, but I still assert that the ballad was just a throwaway placeholder. "Let's just get through this and go back to the impressive fast stuff". Which, by the way, WAS quite impressive. 

Truly a masterclass in how to design a show that holds back your world class performers. 

Also, why the "blackout"?? I remember it being a hugely-hyped deal by GH...but...what was the point?

Totally agree with everything you said here, which is why I don't think of the Cadets 2015 as one of the best shows to not win. Certainly one of the more talented corps to not win. They won both brass and percussion in Semi Finals, and were expected to do the same at Finals. I'm not sure if it would have been the first time a corps won brass and percussion and not won the title. I believe BD may also have done that, but not sure. Clearly, however, the Cadets had the brass, drums, and killer drill to compete and win. But they didn't have the show design. 

I loved them that year, but I'm the type of guy that can just sit, watch great drill and listen to a killer music ensemble and love it. I am not a great judge of overall show theme, GE, etc.  However, it was clear that the show theme was horrible. It was elementary and lacked GE appeal and complexity. For a corps that talented, you are so right...this was a masterclass in how to hold back a super talented corps.

Edited by jwillis35

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On 2/4/2019 at 9:01 AM, Ghost said:

Haven't searched yet, but how does 94 compare to 93?

94 is good, but 93, imo, was on another level.  That was kind of a weird year in that PR had a show that in most years would have run away with the title (seriously, the crowd had to have run out of babies to throw by the end of Fire of Eternal Glory; god only knows what they threw during Death Hunt), but that year Cadets and Star were in a league all their own.

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9 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

The Scouts did not come from nowhere.

 

On 2/4/2019 at 9:12 AM, BRASSO said:

 ... Madison went to Europe mid season,  was away from competition with BD and the others as a result. The Madison Corps reportedly bonded very well on their trip to Europe, and the Corps improved... a lot.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 2:57 PM, queenanne_1536 said:

... Madison left for Europe 6/20 and their first show back was 7/9...  started to really gel towards the end of the season. Night after night they were improving by leaps and bounds. They were a raging inferno...

Ok, in 1988 the Scouts either came back from Europe a raging inferno, vastly improved, and ready to be competitive enough to win; or… they came out of nowhere to win at Prelims and Finals in KC.

Let’s look at head-to-head only scores, and week ending average rankings based not on top scores but weekly average, against SCV, Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Regiment and Star from 7/9, their date of return, up to the 8/19 8/20 KC Prelims/Finals:

7/9

Regiment 82.6

Scouts 82.2

7/15

Regiment 84.0

Star 83.4

Scouts 81.6

7/16

Regiment 84.0

Star 83.0

Cavaliers 81.9

Scouts 81.4

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

7/23

Star 85.2

Scouts 83.0

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

7/25

Devils 89.7

Scouts 85.2

7/27

Devils 86.6

Scouts 83.4

7/28

Devils 87.7

SCV 85.5

Scouts 84.7

7/30

Devils 91.9

SCV 90.2

Scouts 87.3

(week ending overall average rank 6th)

8/1

Regiment 87.8

Scouts 87.1

8/2

SCV 91.3

Regiment 89.6

Scouts 88.2

8/3

Cadets 89.0

Scouts 88.9

8/4

SCV 91.6

Scouts 90.2

8/6

SCV 92.2

Scouts 90.4

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

8/13

SCV 94.3

Scouts 93.9

(week ending overall average rank 5th)

Then...........

8/19 KC Prelims

Scouts 97.8

Devils 96.6

SCV 96.3

Cavaliers 95.6

Cadets 94.8

Regiment 93.6

Star 93.1

8/20 KC Finals

Scouts 97.1

SCV 96.9

Devils 96.3

Cadets 96.1

Cavaliers 95.1

Regiment 93.5

Star 92.8

(Prelims/Finals ranking 1st)

Week ending average rank: 7th, 7th, 6th, 7th, 5th, then at Prelims/Finals 1st. So raging inferno starting on 7/9, or out of nowhere on 8/19? I say let the scores and rankings speak for themselves.

Edited by Stu
Cleaned up the format
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On 2/4/2019 at 8:01 AM, Ghost said:

Haven't searched yet, but how does 94 compare to 93?

Watch 93, but adjust the color on your tv to black and white and you'll basically be watching 94.

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16 hours ago, Stu said:

 

 

Ok, in 1988 the Scouts either came back from Europe a raging inferno, vastly improved, and ready to be competitive enough to win; or… they came out of nowhere to win at Prelims and Finals in KC.

Let’s look at head-to-head only scores, and week ending average rankings based not on top scores but weekly average, against SCV, Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Regiment and Star from 7/9, their date of return, up to the 8/19 8/20 KC Prelims/Finals:

7/9

Regiment 82.6

Scouts 82.2

7/15

Regiment 84.0

Star 83.4

Scouts 81.6

7/16

Regiment 84.0

Star 83.0

Cavaliers 81.9

Scouts 81.4

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

7/23

Star 85.2

Scouts 83.0

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

7/25

Devils 89.7

Scouts 85.2

7/27

Devils 86.6

Scouts 83.4

7/28

Devils 87.7

SCV 85.5

Scouts 84.7

7/30

Devils 91.9

SCV 90.2

Scouts 87.3

(week ending overall average rank 6th)

8/1

Regiment 87.8

Scouts 87.1

8/2

SCV 91.3

Regiment 89.6

Scouts 88.2

8/3

Cadets 89.0

Scouts 88.9

8/4

SCV 91.6

Scouts 90.2

8/6

SCV 92.2

Scouts 90.4

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

8/13

SCV 94.3

Scouts 93.9

(week ending overall average rank 5th)

Then...........

8/19 KC Prelims

Scouts 97.8

Devils 96.6

SCV 96.3

Cavaliers 95.6

Cadets 94.8

Regiment 93.6

Star 93.1

8/20 KC Finals

Scouts 97.1

SCV 96.9

Devils 96.3

Cadets 96.1

Cavaliers 95.1

Regiment 93.5

Star 92.8

(Prelims/Finals ranking 1st)

Week ending average rank: 7th, 7th, 6th, 7th, 5th, then at Prelims/Finals 1st. So raging inferno starting on 7/9, or out of nowhere on 8/19? I say let the scores and rankings speak for themselves.

I definitely appreciate your research and posting all these scores. My argument is not the scores so much but that Madison simply did not come from nowhere. I am not the one arguing they came back from Europe blazing hot either. I saw them early that season and they clearly had a top 5 show. Major talented corps. That was obvious. The question many of us had was "how long would it take them to get their competitive legs back once they returned from Europe?"  If anything, many of us felt they would need time to get the show up to competitive shape and that it would take time for various judging crews to get up to speed on Madison's show. I think the numbers you posted indicate just that. I saw them at that 8-3 show and it was clear to me there they were going to be top 3, not just top 5. They had more work to do, but the show was there. It simply took them a while to get back into competitive shape and put the polish on the show. But the show I saw early season is mostly the show I saw at the end. Not a surprise at all. Just needed cleaned. 

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39 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

I definitely appreciate your research and posting all these scores. My argument is not the scores so much but that Madison simply did not come from nowhere. I am not the one arguing they came back from Europe blazing hot either. I saw them early that season and they clearly had a top 5 show. Major talented corps. That was obvious. The question many of us had was "how long would it take them to get their competitive legs back once they returned from Europe?"  If anything, many of us felt they would need time to get the show up to competitive shape and that it would take time for various judging crews to get up to speed on Madison's show. I think the numbers you posted indicate just that. I saw them at that 8-3 show and it was clear to me there they were going to be top 3, not just top 5. They had more work to do, but the show was there. It simply took them a while to get back into competitive shape and put the polish on the show. But the show I saw early season is mostly the show I saw at the end. Not a surprise at all. Just needed cleaned. 

Thank you for the compliment. It took a while to pick out the head to head shows and especially figuring out the average weekly rankings. So, I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Starting on 7/16 they were ranked by averaging all scores nation wide as 7th, seven days later still 7th, seven days later 6th, seven days later back to 7th, seven days later 5th, (never besting any of the aforementioned corps head to head), and six not seven but six days later a huge leap in both score and rank to 1st, (only then beating them all in one swoop head to head), and again 1st the next day. So.... A) You do not see that as out of nowhere? and B) You truely think they made that large, huge, of improvement in six days when they were not able to do that at all in any of the previous five weeks?

Edited by Stu
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19 hours ago, Stu said:

7/30

Devils 91.9

SCV 90.2

Scouts 87.3

(week ending overall average rank 6th)

8/6

SCV 92.2

Scouts 90.4

(week ending overall average rank 7th)

8/13

SCV 94.3

Scouts 93.9

(week ending overall average rank 5th)

Thanks for posting the scores. It was fun to relive. There are, however, some problems with your analysis.

7/30. You are incorrectly assuming Scouts were 6th as of that date. Regiment defeated Star of Indiana two weeks earlier by 1.0 at DCM DeKalb. On 7/30, Star won DCI Canada (over Garfield and Cavies), and Madison beat Regiment at Whitewater. While it is possible, if all the top corps were together on 7/30 that the Scouts could have placed 6th, It's also just as possible that the Scouts could have placed as high as 3rd. We'll never know, because they weren't all together and you cannot compare scores from different shows.

8/6. Your 8/6 assumption that the Scouts were ranked 7th is potentially false. Up until that point, SCV had only lost to BD. It's doubtful four other corps would fall in the 1.8 gap between SCV and BD. But, it's possible.

8/13. This is where I think your assessment is really wrong. 0.4 separated SCV and Madison. Again, SCV had only lost to BD up until that point. Madison was without a shred of a doubt in 3rd place at that moment. I had a couple friends who marched SCV in '88 and '89, and in '89 one of them told me Gail Royer, after their show on 8/13, told them Madison was for real and would contend for the championship in Kansas City (whether he said something to that effect or not, I cannot verify, obviously). That's just what I was told. That same friend also said he thought they (SCV) were going to finish 4th at finals, behind BD, Madison and Garfield, so he said he surprised they finished 2nd. I'm not, their show was fantastic. 

And BD was no where to be found for Madison and SCV after 7/30. Therefore, we have no way of knowing whether BD would have come into finals undefeated if they had faced SCV and Madison along the way. If I had to guess, I would guess they probably would have remained unbeaten until at least 8/13. It could, were they there, have all changed that night, or SCV may have beaten them earlier. But, we will never know.

I think DCM was a complete #### show that year. I was there. There is no way in hell Madison should have placed 4th. Even Drum Corps World said they should have won DCM in their write up about the show. I dont't know if I agree with that, but they should have been right up there with Regiment and Star, if not ahead of Star, that night.

If you take the DCM debacle out of the equation there was never a moment in '88 where the Scouts weren't a threat to finish in the top 3. Not once. There was a point where they weren't a threat to finish top 2, but 3rd was a possibility from the get go. But, what was shocking, for those of us that witnessed the transition over the past couple weeks of the season was how a corps fighting for 3rd or 4th place transitioned into a champion. It was unbelievable That's what I was talking about when I said "raging inferno." I didn't say they came back from Europe in that state. I said the last few weeks of the season. Or last couple, in fact. You could just feel, in watching them, that something remarkable was about to happen. Their finals performance in '88 still ranks as the greatest I have ever seen in terms of pure energy. I went to finals that year hoping SCV would win (as I did in 85, and 86, and 87, and 89 and every year thereafter). On finals night, I wasn't left with a single doubt Madison would win, and that's the way I wanted it in the end.

 

Edited by queenanne_1536
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