George Dixon

Best EARLY SEASON show/corps that ending up NOT winning?

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10 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I love Madison, I won't lie, but I want Santa Clara to win almost every year. But, there are season's where a corps puts on such a magical show that I am happy that Santa Clara didn't win. '88 Madison was one of those years, as was 1990-1993 Star (even though they won only one of those years, I wanted them to win all four), as was 2000 Cadets, 2005 Cadets, 2008 Regiment and 2013 Crown. 

When magic strikes, like it did for Madison in '88 and Regiment in '96 and '08, and you realize you are watching something that rarely ever happens, and something so completely awesome, it's not hard to be happy about the outcome. Even though Santa Clara has my heart there are times when another corps puts something out there and that makes me want them to win. Crown '15 is another.

Let me ask you this - were you even in the stands at finals in '88? Or are you basing your surprise off a video of the performances? Very different live. Madison completely nuked that stadium. I've never seen a fan base react like that. 2008 was close.

Sure I was there in '88; but that is irrelevant. The analysis is based only on retrospective objective score and ranking evaluation; not on any emotional reaction, desire, personal bias, I wanted, my friend said, the stadium rocked, the crowd reacted, we knew, no way in h###, I was there, it ended the way I wanted, biased prism.

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44 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

But THAT is simply inaccurate. I think I've stated my case above. You are simply off in your comparisons because you are comparing scores for different shows. You cannot do that. Only head-to-head matters. The one and only night of '88 that the Scouts could have conceivably been 7th (or lower) was at DCM Finals when they placed 4th. 

Also, again, they were not 5th 6 days before finals. They were third at worst, unless you think SCV was 4th on that date, or you think two corps would have placed between SCV's 94.3 and Madison's 93.9. 

Yes, they surged. I'm not arguing they didn't. But it's not like they were in 7th (or 5th) coming into finals and won. They were essentially even with SCV (the 2nd place corps) coming in. That is an absolute fact!

Surges have happened. In '87 Garfield stunned an undefeated SCV to win. I'm still not over that, even though '87 Garfield and '87 SCV are probably my two favorite shows of all time. In '92 Cadets were actually 6th coming into finals and finished 7th. In 1997, SCV started the season 10 points behind BD and tied them in Quarters. It happens. '88 isn't the only time it happened.

Wow! The head-to-head / different night / different panel arguments usually don’t start happening until June. This is an off-season for the ages!

Edited by Jurassic Lancer
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33 minutes ago, Stu said:

Sure I was there in '88; but that is irrelevant. The analysis is based only on retrospective objective score and ranking evaluation; not on any emotional reaction, desire, personal bias, I wanted, my friend said, the stadium rocked, the crowd reacted, we knew, no way in h###, I was there, it ended the way I wanted, biased prism.

It is not irrelevant. You weren't there. You didn't bear witness to any of it. I was there the whole season in '88. I saw all the top corps several times. I bore witness to what happened throughout that season, including coming into to finals week.

I never once, in '88, thought Madison was going to place lower than 4th at DCI finals, not even when they were 4th at DCM. I knew they were going to beat all their midwestern rivals. Cavaliers actually had my favorite show of '88. It was a stunning masterpiece. However, musically it lacked the intensity, energy and excitement of Madison's show, and during finals week it lacked Madison's finesse from a visual perspective. Regiment's show was a stunner visually, but as someone whose life revolves around classical music, I thought Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet was a poor choice. Aside from the beautiful love theme, it's a rather dud of a piece, and their watering of the score as the season progressed seemed to negatively impact the effect more so than the watering of other corps. Star has a nice show, but it was easy to see from the beginning of the season it was designed to be successful in June and July and place 7th come finals.

Did I think Madison was going to be top 2 coming into finals? I thought they had a chance to beat SCV after 8/13, but thought they were probably going to be 3rd or 4th. I knew SCV and BD were going to be up there, and one would be a fool to count Garfield out. But I will tell you, as I walked out of Arrowhead Stadium on Friday night of finals week, there was no doubt in my mind Madison won. They blew everyone away. Everyone! Their Semi's performance was nearly perfect. It's too bad that wasn't their finals performance.

You can say I'm biased or what not, but it doesn't matter. I keep telling you why you are wrong and you are not getting it. Madison did not come in ranked 5th and win. That is just a fact. If you had said they were possibly 7th at this point or possibly 6th at one point, then there wouldn't be a disagreement, but that's not what you said. Unless you can find a score from '88 with a 5, 6 or 7 before Madison's name then they were definitively never ranked 5th, 6th or 7th. That's not how it works. Their one and only placement beneath 3rd all season was DCM Finals, where they placed 4th.

Edited by queenanne_1536

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45 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

....I've never seen a fan base react like that. 2008 was close.

Since you brought up 2008. While the nowhere jump to win was not as extreme, Regiment bounced around with Crown and Cavaliers near the third or fourth place range the entire season; then they were third in prelims, second in semis, and beat the Devils for the first and only time in finals. Yes the crowd went wild, but the analysis is objective and not based on crowd or personal emotion.

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2 minutes ago, Stu said:

Since you brought up 2008. While the nowhere jump to win was not as extreme, Regiment bounced around with Crown and Cavaliers near the third or fourth place range the entire season; then they were third in prelims, second in semis, and beat the Devils for the first and only time in finals. Yes the crowd went wild, but the analysis is objective and not based on crowd or personal emotion.

I know the season well. Look, had BD or SCV won in '88, there would be no argument from me. If BD won in '08, well I wouldn't argue against that either. I those cases they were all close, so things could have gone any way, but they went the way they went. It was exciting to bear witness to those two nights. They were both magical and I was thankful to be there. Both were well deserved wins. 

Now if Madison had performed in finals in '88 like they had in semis and BD or SCV would have won, then I would argue against that BIG TIME, but Madison's finals performance was not quite as good as their semis performance.

Edited by queenanne_1536

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6 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

...You weren't there. You didn't bear witness to any of it....

You could be correct. When I was attending university there was a philosophy professor who promoted the idea that even existential touch, sight, hearing, is all but an illusion. So maybe you are right that I really was not there. Or maybe the photos of me during the 88 season are proof enough that I was indeed there. With that dear queen, I bid you adieu.

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2 minutes ago, Stu said:

You could be correct. When I was attending university there was a philosophy professor who promoted the idea that even existential touch, sight, hearing, is all but an illusion. So maybe you are right that I really was not there. Or maybe the photos of me during the 88 season are proof enough that I was indeed there. With that dear queen, I bid you adieu.

I misread. I thought you said you weren't there. Yes, adieu, indeed. No point in further continuation of this argument. Peace to you.

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22 hours ago, Stu said:

Starting on 7/16 they were ranked by averaging all scores nation wide as 7th, seven days later still 7th, seven days later 6th, seven days later back to 7th, seven days later 5th, (never besting any of the aforementioned corps head to head), and six not seven but six days later a huge leap in both score and rank to 1st, (only then beating them all in one swoop head to head), and again 1st the next day. So.... A) You do not see that as out of nowhere? and B) You truely think they made that large, huge, of improvement in six days when they were not able to do that at all in any of the previous five weeks?

You're killing me with all these facts. White flag up! :)  

All kidding aside, I appreciate seeing all this again. I think my argument is more in line with queenanne_1536.  I don't question that the actual scores may have slotted Madison in 6th or 7th at times when they returned, but I do feel the judges took some time to get a better read on the Scouts. I had friends who saw them at DCM and, just as queenanne_1536 mentioned, thought Madison clearly won the show. I watched them dismantle a talented Garfield corps in Morgantown (my opinion of course) and was then shocked that they lost by .1.  If anything, I was surprised they were not beating Cavaliers, Garfield, and Phantom when they returned to tour. 

In the bigger picture I would imagine more people were caught by surprise with Madison in 1988.  That certainly supports the numbers you have shared. There were, however, many of us who saw them early before Europe and we knew then Madison was going to bring it big time come Finals if they got the show cleaned. I didn't pick them to win the title, but I had them 3rd after Morgantown. 

What a great corps they were. It is fun to talk about that show again. 

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1 hour ago, jwillis35 said:

You're killing me with all these facts. White flag up! 🙂

All kidding aside, I appreciate seeing all this again. I think my argument is more in line with queenanne_1536.  I don't question that the actual scores may have slotted Madison in 6th or 7th at times when they returned, but I do feel the judges took some time to get a better read on the Scouts. I had friends who saw them at DCM and, just as queenanne_1536 mentioned, thought Madison clearly won the show. I watched them dismantle a talented Garfield corps in Morgantown (my opinion of course) and was then shocked that they lost by .1.  If anything, I was surprised they were not beating Cavaliers, Garfield, and Phantom when they returned to tour. 

In the bigger picture I would imagine more people were caught by surprise with Madison in 1988.  That certainly supports the numbers you have shared. There were, however, many of us who saw them early before Europe and we knew then Madison was going to bring it big time come Finals if they got the show cleaned. I didn't pick them to win the title, but I had them 3rd after Morgantown. 

What a great corps they were. It is fun to talk about that show again. 

The thing here is that emotionally, aesthetically, throw the baby in the air, wow factor, etc... I agree with both you and queen. It was fascinating to see the Scouts pull it off, their finals week performances were on fire, and I never said I disagreed with the final outcome. The same holds true for Regiment in 2008.

I am just not allowing my personal bias to influence the 'objective' retroactive analysis of head to head scores and average weekly rankings of either 1988 or 2008. The objective criteria shows that they did indeed climb up to beat corps never beaten prior to finals. More so out of nowhere for the Scouts in '88.

Remember though how this rabbit trail got started. I stated that SCV came out strong in '88 (best early show that did not win imo because Scouts came out of nowhere) which indirectly impacted Regiment and how strong they came out in '89 (best early show that did not win imo due to SCV and their revamped version of their show subject).

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go start a thread about 88 Mad :whip:

I was hoping to hear folks nominating best early season corps that ended up NOT winning - 2017 Coats for example?

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