George Dixon Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: at a major expense. everything is being sold Of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said: What is valid is an opinion here. Might not be valid to you but if the board does not want to allow an activity that has a cloud over their head that could be a valid reason to them. And valid reason for the residents who live in that district. Especially those residents who live near the facilities. Bottom line is the school board is accountable to the residents so why the hades should they take a chance on allowing an outside group with a predator problem (or image of the same) to use the facilities. All it takes is one person to raise hell at a school board meeting or election time and it’s not worth the effort. And as for someone’s else’s problem, it’s not the school board/admins responsibility to worry about other districts. 4 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said: Or they might be seeing it as 1) Corps with a problem that have been caught 2) Corps that don’t have a problem 3) Corps with a problem that haven’t been caught. Why should they take a chance on on ending up with #3? Or more to the point why should they take time out of their schedule to find out if a corps using their facilities is 1, 2 or 3? There was an issue at Penn State; it was an isolated issue; but they are a school which is part of the NCAA. Therefore high school parents should avoid sending their kids to a football camp held at the University of Nebraska, a school which is closely associated to Penn State via the the NCAA. Why take the chance? That is the same invalid excuse as saying "Our school should not take the chance to host BD, Academy, Mandarins, ect because this issue is determined by us as being systemic to all DCI corps; and we just cannot take the chance." Again, I contend that anyone using this as an excuse would also grasp onto a multitude of other excuses because they just do not want any corps to stay on site in the first place. Edited April 6, 2019 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Stu said: There was an issue at Penn State; it was an isolated issue; but they are a school which is part of the NCAA. Therefore high school parents should avoid sending their kids to a football camp held at the University of Nebraska, a school which is closely associated to Penn State via the the NCAA. Why take the chance? That is the same invalid excuse as saying "Our school should not take the chance to host BD, Academy, Mandarins, ect because this issue is determined by us as being systemic to all DCI corps; and we just cannot take the chance." Again, I contend that anyone using this as an excuse would also grasp onto a multitude of other excuses because they just do not want any corps to stay on site in the first place. First off the parents have a choice of sending kids somewhere which is different from having a group in your area and you had no choice in the matter. Secondly you are entitled to your opinion and it should be respected. Now how about respecting the opinion of people who disagree. You keep throwing out the word "excuses" like their opinion doesn't matter or they are wrong. I never said the predator problem is the only reason why facilities are denied. But it can be used as an additional reason why they are denied. And to respond to your quote.. WHY should school districts take a chance with ANY group? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 9 hours ago, Stu said: Local area, local news, local issue. Yep, rather prominent. And that could likely create local housing problems for other corps. But I bet a dollar to a doughnut that while this issue is broadcasted to the world via the internet, across the country this is not viewed as a systemic problem throughout the entirity of DCI. And the only ones outside the local area who would try to apply this issue to all corps are those who were/are aiready reaching for a multitude of other excuses to not house corps. at the moment...maybe not. if another huge story breaks...yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: at the moment...maybe not. if another huge story breaks...yup Local in Allentown... local in Milwaukee... local in Pacific Northwest (forget where)... to quote my dad “this #### adds up after a while”. Edit : local in Bones part of Texas.... Edited April 6, 2019 by JimF-LowBari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said: First off the parents have a choice of sending kids somewhere which is different from having a group in your area and you had no choice in the matter. Secondly you are entitled to your opinion and it should be respected. Now how about respecting the opinion of people who disagree. You keep throwing out the word "excuses" like their opinion doesn't matter or they are wrong. I never said the predator problem is the only reason why facilities are denied. But it can be used as an additional reason why they are denied. And to respond to your quote.. WHY should school districts take a chance with ANY group? a) Please cite where there is a systimic preditor problem which exists in DCI. How many 'known convicted' sexual preditors have been directly involved with corps in DCI from 1972- prestent? b) Yes everyone is free to hold any opinion they desire. But opinion based on fact (as an opinion based how many actual known convicted sexual preditors there are in each corps) is to me more valid than opinion based on mere speculation and fear. c) as to why schools should not be afraid to house ANY corps? Known convicted sexual preditors have not been, nor are they now, associated with those corps at any capacity. This is not a systimic problem in DCI at all; and the overwhelming innocent corps, staff, and youth should not be punished; period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Stu said: a) Please cite where there is a systimic preditor problem which exists in DCI. How many 'known convicted' sexual preditors have been directly involved with corps in DCI from 1972- prestent? b) Yes everyone is free to hold any opinion they desire. But opinion based on fact (as an opinion based how many actual known convicted sexual preditors there are in each corps) is to me more valid than opinion based on mere speculation and fear. c) as to why schools should not be afraid to house ANY corps? Known convicted sexual preditors have not been, nor are they now, associated with those corps at any capacity. This is not a systimic problem in DCI at all; and the overwhelming innocent corps, staff, and youth should not be punished; period. Welcome to the imperfect world Stu. Schools, churches and other youth based groups do what they can to keep youth safe. And if they go way to the safety side in what they do that’s their prerogative. And having been there in the church side I say more power to them. (Lol still waiting for a threatened lawsuit on that one) It’s not the schools responsibility to determine which corps are safe. It is DCIs responsibility to do all they can to clean up this mess so it stops being an issue in the future. Point the finger the right way. And just wondering: what percentage of corps putting youth at risk in any way (not just predators) would you consider systematic? Edited April 6, 2019 by JimF-LowBari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaklefthand4ever Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stu said: That is the same invalid excuse as saying "Our school should not take the chance to host BD, Academy, Mandarins, ect because this issue is determined by us as being systemic to all DCI corps; and we just cannot take the chance." Again, I contend that anyone using this as an excuse would also grasp onto a multitude of other excuses because they just do not want any corps to stay on site in the first place. And although I can see where you're coming from, calling it an "invalid excuse" is not for any of "us" to determine. That's like saying that my reasoning for not buying specific materials for my production of pool cues from Asia is an "invalid excuse" because I, along with hundreds of cue makers over the last 40+ years have had more problems with quality and illegal trade complaints than is worth our time. I'm 99% certain that 95% of the companies I could do business with in Asia are completely above board and aren't poaching endangered wood species. I'm simply NOT going to take the risk getting fined $600,000 like Gibson did even on that 5%. And before anyone says "apples and oranges," it isn't. Risk vs. Reward is valid for those schools and it's their opinion that matters because THEY are taking the risk in their minds. 27 minutes ago, Stu said: as to why schools should not be afraid to house ANY corps? Known convicted sexual preditors have not been, nor are they now, associated with those corps at any capacity. This is not a systimic problem in DCI at all; and the overwhelming innocent corps, staff, and youth should not be punished; period. I don't disagree with this statement at ALL. I don't believe it to be a systemic problem within DCI or the marching arts in general. But I think we can all agree that no matter how it SHOULD work we have no control over how it actually DOES work. The MM's and staff should not be punished for what happened in other offending organizations. Unfortunately what is right and what is real will often oppose each other. At this point (to get back to the OP's question at the beginning of the thread,) many things have happened to begin the healing process. Most of the work that we can see has been done by the corps themselves and done proactively. DCI has made steps to also put in place rules and people to make change. Most of that seems to be reactionary, but as I stated earlier in the thread you have to put out the fires which are burning before you prevent fires to come, so reactionary is what had to happen. What happens going FORWARD is now where the focus will turn. Edited April 6, 2019 by Weaklefthand4ever 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 25 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said: ...And just wondering: what percentage of corps putting youth at risk in any way (not just predators) would you consider systematic? Before I answer your question, you failed to answer my question which I posed to you first, which is: How many 'known convicted' sexual preditors have been directly involved with any of the corps involved with DCI from 1972- present? That answer will show why I believe this is not a systemic problem within DCI. So, please answer my question first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Stu said: Before I answer your question, you failed to answer my question which I posed to you first, which is: How many 'known convicted' sexual preditors have been directly involved with any of the corps involved with DCI from 1972- present? That answer will show why I believe this is not a systemic problem within DCI. So, please answer my question first. Stu I don’t know, I don’t care and I don’t see how it makes a difference in what schools decide if there is systemic problem or not. I also don’t care if you think there is a systematic problem or not as that’s your opinion either way Edited April 6, 2019 by JimF-LowBari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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