North Canton, OH - Saturday, June 22, 2019

[queenanne_1536]

2 hours ago, craiga said:

I still can't get over the fact that some folks are proclaiming Boston can't do this or that simply based on the video of the first show... Without even seeing it in person.  They may come in 1st or 6th, but to "guarantee" what their ceiling is seems disenguous. If you are that good you really should get your judging card.

Because it doesn't take 16 reads to evaluate a design and understand the difference between a championship design, a 3rd place design, and a 5th place design. I would even argue Boston has a 4th place design this year, but the problem is 5 other corps have top 3 designs. And today, design is what it comes down to. I think it's the fans that expect and hope for more this season than BAC members and staff do. The BAC staff are VERY smart and they know what they are doing. They are doing the exact things they should be doing. They know their best chance at long-term sustained success means building a foundation, designing smart (not safe, smart) programming, solid recruitment, and taking their time, not rushing out and trying to win a championship last year or this year.

Their rise from 2016 to 2017 was absolutely remarkable if not down right astonishing, and if we ever seen such a rise again, it will be a very long time from now. People can't expect a championship program to be built overnight or over just three seasons. It just doesn't work that way. Look at how long it took Crown, Bluecoats and Vanguard to get there. It took Bluecoats 10 years after breaking into the top 4 to win (2006 to 2016). It took Crown 5 years from breaking into the top 4 to win (2008-2013). It took Vanguard 5 years from breaking into the top 4 to win again (2013 to 2018) and 29 years (1989 to 2018) passed in between solo wins for them. Regiment broke into the top 2 in 1978 and didn't win their first solo title until 30 years later. It takes a long long time, and a lot of work, and a lot of strategy. 

I absolutely think Boston can get there. They are on the right path. It just might take a couple more years.

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by queenanne_1536

[Stu]

12 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

You are assigning improper cause to the effect.  It is possible to play better baseball one day to the next, but it is not possible to program the same show better (or worse, for that matter) one day to the next in an effectual way.  Your example isn't congruent concerning the source of point value.

That's not arbitrary adjudicated slotting as people conceive of it.

By your analogy, performing a surge like that in drumcorps requires some agressive maneuvering that isn't really possible (or worthwhile for the experience).

Corps would have to stop competing, redesign (and probably change entirely) their show.  They would have to break contracts and successfully recruit different talent, not only for membership, but also for the design team... so essentially they have to start over with a 4 week training session on a new show and a new drumcorps.  That's where the bulk of points come from.  Contention is mostly determined at the brainstorming table and the recruitment roster... NOT the judging table and the judging roster on opening night.

 

Change my mind.

I never said slotting was arbitrary. But it only begins once a show has been first put on the field and the design is evaluated in the first few shows of the season.

You and Queenanne can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word slotted, but both of you just admited that since designs cannot be thrown out, completely rewritten, and taught anew, once the season starts, corps are placed very early on in range groupings (slotted in that range) then cannot move out of that range due to the percieved design flaws which will always be there the entire season.

And that cannot occur in objective scored sports like MLB, but it happens all the time in subjectively evaluated rankings like DCI.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Stu

[queenanne_1536]

10 minutes ago, Stu said:

Sure, it is two vastly different competitive criteria; objective scoring (MLB) and subjective evaluation ranking (DCI). That was one of the things in which I was pointing out in which is that slotting in MLB cannot occur. But you have actually also just supported my premise.

That after the first or second DCI show within a season the evaulation of design actually does begin to place each corps into a 'range' in which there is no way to overcome. You can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word, but even you just admited that Regiment and Scouts are already in a 'slotted' range.

You're missing the point and I absolutely did not support your premise. My views on who is going to place where have absolutely nothing to do with judging adjudication or slotting or judging bias, and everything to do with talent, design and execution. 

Boston came into the 2017 season having made finals by the skin of their teeth in 2016. This time that year, I pegged Boston for 6th or 7th, based on the design and talent they had acquired. If what you claim is true, they would not have finished any where near 6th. The same can be said about Blue Stars and Mandarins last year, and Academy in 2016.

I also thought, this time last year, the Cavaliers were going to challenge for bronze. Of course, that did not happen, and I, like everyone else, am wrong sometimes. It's just fun to try and predict who is going to finish where, but I think the judges ultimately get the order of placement right and that's what is most important.

 

[queenanne_1536]

11 minutes ago, Stu said:

I never said slotting was arbitrary. But it only begins once a show has been first put on the field and the design is evaluated in the first few shows of the season.

You and Queenanne can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word slotted, but both of you just admited that since designs cannot be thrown out, completely rewritten, and taught anew, once the season starts, corps are placed very early on in range groupings (slotted in that range) then cannot move out of that range due to the percieved design flaws which will always be there the entire season.

And that cannot occur in objective scored sports like MLB, but it happens all the time in subjectively evaluated rankings like DCI.

I don't know if I am misunderstanding you. And, forgive me if I am. What it seems to me like you're saying is that Regiment won't place 8th if they deserve it because the judges have already slotted them in 11-14, or something to that effect. Is that correct?

[cfirwin3]

21 minutes ago, Stu said:

I never said slotting was arbitrary. But it only begins once a show has been first put on the field and the design is evaluated in the first few shows of the season.

You and Queenanne can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word slotted, but both of you just admited that since designs cannot be thrown out, completely rewritten, and taught anew, once the season starts, corps are placed very early on in range groupings (slotted in that range) then cannot move out of that range due to the percieved design flaws which will always be there the entire season.

But that's what the show earns.  One can't justify that a show that gets what it earns should get more... and that failing to give more is an injustice.

That's not 'slotting' as some people are defining it... meaning something that is done TO a corps rather than BY the corps.

Name 1... Just 1 corps in the history of  DCI adjudication (since the removal of the negative point evaluation system) that started the season in 8th place and then was denied a medal after having earned it.  The conspiracy of slotting requires us to be able to complete this simple exercise... It's the minimum threshold of evidence.  Seriously, there is more evidence for... a flat earth (at least there, someone can point to the horizon line and make a faulty but supported argument).  With slotted immobility in drumcorps, there is no evidence of prohibitive movement designated by adjudicative culture.

I'm not sure why you would associate me with remarks by anyone else... or why you would call this explanation obtuse.  I'm never out to dog on any drumcorps.  I am just here to discuss what can be observed in the adjudication sheets and the implications of it for the season.

If you are curious as to what trends are workable for movement on the adjudication sheets... statistically, any subcaption with less than a .2 margin is competitive.  Beyond that, it's hard to cover ground without significant rewrites and the capacity to rehearse it.

Lastly, this activity is subjective, yes.  But the difference between 8th place and 3rd can be accounted for entirely in the objective rubric criteria.  Even much of GE has some objective rubric criteria (sometimes, usually, consistently, always, etc.)  Now 2 corps sitting in 1st and 2nd with .25 between... TOTALLY subjective.  But that's not at all what we are talking about here.

Edited June 23, 2019 by cfirwin3

[Stu]

1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I don't know if I am misunderstanding you. And, forgive me if I am. What it seems to me like you're saying is that Regiment won't place 8th if they deserve it because the judges have already slotted them in 11-14, or something to that effect. Is that correct?

I am saying three things:

1) That once the DCI season begins, and designs are evaluated in the first few shows, corps are placed in range groupings (general range positions) in which they will stay the entire season. And a corps that is determined 'early on' to be in the top design group will not fall out into a lower group, nor will a corps that is determined 'early on' to be in the lower or middle design group have a shot at a medal that year.

2) This 'early on' determination is actually a form of slotting because it is determined by subjective evaluation and ranking by judges based on something beyond the control of the players: design by the staff which is rather unchangeable once the season begins. And there is nothing the players can do to get out of that 'early on' slotted range.

3) This is opposed to objective scored sports like MLB where if the players stink early on, but rally mid to late season to score more runs than their opponents, an 'early on last place team' can in fact still become world champions in that very same season.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Stu

[Stu]

1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:

You're missing the point and I absolutely did not support your premise. My views on who is going to place where have absolutely nothing to do with judging adjudication or slotting or judging bias, and everything to do with talent, design and execution. 

Boston came into the 2017 season having made finals by the skin of their teeth in 2016. This time that year, I pegged Boston for 6th or 7th, based on the design and talent they had acquired. If what you claim is true, they would not have finished any where near 6th. The same can be said about Blue Stars and Mandarins last year, and Academy in 2016.

I also thought, this time last year, the Cavaliers were going to challenge for bronze. Of course, that did not happen, and I, like everyone else, am wrong sometimes. It's just fun to try and predict who is going to finish where, but I think the judges ultimately get the order of placement right and that's what is most important.

 

See what I posted to queenanne. It is also applicable to your post.

[cfirwin3]

5 minutes ago, Stu said:

I am saying three things:

1) That once the DCI season begins, and designs are evaluated in the first few shows, corps are placed in range groupings (general range positions) in which they will stay the entire season. And a corps that is determined 'early on' to be in the top design group will not fall out into a lower group, nor will a corps that is determine 'early on' to be in the lower or middle group have a shot at a medal that year.

2) This 'early on' determination is actually a form of slotting because it is determined by subjective evaluation and ranking by judges based on something beyond the control of the players: design by the staff which is rather unchangeable once the season begins. And there is nothing the players can do to get out of that 'early on' determined slotted range.

3) This is opposed to objective scored sports where if the players stink early on, but rally mid to late season to score more runs than their opponents, an early last place team can in fact still become world champions in that very same season.

There is a hint in there that the subjective elements of adjudication in drumcorps are the majority rule.  When you look at the guidance rubrics, you find that this isn't true for most of the scoring.  The second thing that seems hinted in there that I take issue with is that the early reads could be poor (wrong) and the corps are stuck with that for the season.  I'm not sure if you are suggesting that, but again, I fall back on the simple test to name a corps that historically got a 'bad' read (again, only if you are suggesting this) and was never awarded a proper placement adjustment after achieving excellence (compared to the field) on the season.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

There is a hint in there that the subjective elements of adjudication in drumcorps are the majority rule.  When you look at the guidance rubrics, you find that this isn't true for most of the scoring.  The second thing that seems hinted in there that I take issue with is that the early reads could be poor (wrong) and the corps are stuck with that for the season.  I'm not sure if you are suggesting that, but again, I fall back on the simple test to name a corps that historically got a 'bad' read (again, only if you are suggesting this) and was never awarded a proper placement adjustment after achieving excellence (compared to the field) on the season.

A) I cannot say any read is poor or good. Those are subjective terms. And the only subjective evaluations which matter are the ones made by the official judges.

B) I am not saying early reads that are considered by anyone as being poor are indeed poor. They are merely first reads by official judges.

C) Majority rule? Nope. But adjudicators who are supposed to be trained the same, interpret the same, subjectively evaluate the same, from early on to finals, in the name of consistency? Yep.

D) it is item (c) that creates a corps' early on general ranking range which will be in place for the entire season; it is based on a consistent official judging view early on of what is determined to be good/bad design. And design is something that can be tweeked but not blown out and completely changed. Thus it only allows the corps to move around throughout the rest of the season within the early on assigned range.

E) Here is the proof: It is already detetmined, here in June, by the subjective evaluation of the official judges, that the Scouts will not win this year and SCV will not competitively fall out of the top six this year. And, as opposed to objective scoring sports, there is not a darn thing the players can do to change that outcome. Therefore, that early determination of design ranking range by subjective judges which will stay pretty much intact throughout the entire season is, by definition, a form of slotting.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Stu

[oldbandguy]

The Innovations in Brass-North Canton was a great success...especially with the great weather that I'm sure helped with the great walk-up crowd of spectators.  This show was moved from Massillon due to work being done at their stadium.  (New turf)  The folks at Canton Hoover and their facilities certainly were certainly up to the task.  (It's not often a corps gets to spend 4 days at the same school once tour starts.)

A shout out to the two SoundSport corps that kicked off the evening...Rogues Hallow Regiment and Rhythm IN BLUE.  

There may have been only 4 corps in competition, but Phantom, Cadets, Crusaders and Bloo gave the good size crowd their monies worth.

As was to be expected the Canton spectators were FAN tastic and show great appreciation for all of the performers,  Also to be expected the crowd went NUTS for Bloo 🙂

A reminder that the Bluecoats will perform at Gervasi Vineyards in Canton on Monday at 6:30.  This standstill is FREE and open to the public weather permitting.  Thanks to the Swaldo's for making this possible.  Also a reminder that the Bluecoats Innovations In Brass-Pittsburgh is Wednesday night at Gateway HS.