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Madison Scouts now officially co-ed


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Well, I'm not pleased. It feels like a desperation move to increase the talent pool, which I can understand, but at a heavy cost. I hope it pays off, but I can't help but feel the 2020 Madison Scouts will break the continuity of fraternity, brotherhood, etc. that made the Scouts special since 1938. I've worn a lot of uniforms in my life, and those uniforms/badges/symbols represent the values and traditions of each organization. You can keep the uniforms and logos, but if you fundamentally change the espirit de corps , are you really the same group? 

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27 minutes ago, ndkbass said:

I heard this story from an alumnus in my extended family who marched in the late 70s and early 80s (and who continues to volunteer with the corps to this day):

After rehearsals (at various times of the year, so camps or all-days), some members would go into the downtown area and wait outside bars that gay men frequented until they closed so they could verbally harass and physically assault people.  That is a crime, and deeply despicable, and I do not doubt the veracity of the story.  I also have heard from other members in the mid 80s about wearing earrings on certain ears to signify their orientation, and how that was always questioned regardless of which ear/what signification was being presented.  Whether or not you participated or were aware of these reprehensible activities does not mean that it did not happen.

 

Also, your unwillingness to engage with the matter of transrights completely is rather revealing.

 

I am not saying I am a fan of Komnick's decision making in regards to staff hiring, show design, or anything else.  I have been, and probably will continue to be, a vocal critic of the current administration in general.  Heck, I missed part of an ensemble block in 2009 talking with him about all the issues I saw, and I had no problem calling out Dann to his face during corps meetings.  However, that does not prevent me from approving of and celebrating this decision.

 

 I never saw or heard of anything as you described, but that behavior certainly occurred many years ago but was not unique to the Madison scouts, there was plenty of gay harassment in many facets of society before we became tolerant and accepting.

 The earring thing was also not unique to the Madison scouts, right ear gay, left ear straight. What was unique to the Madison scouts was many members had earrings before it was acceptable for men to wear earrings. And yes most of the gay members had earings in the right ear and a straight members had earrings in their left ear.

Edited by FlamMan
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2 minutes ago, Jofus said:

Well, I'm not pleased. It feels like a desperation move to increase the talent pool, which I can understand, but at a heavy cost. I hope it pays off, but I can't help but feel the 2020 Madison Scouts will break the continuity of fraternity, brotherhood, etc. that made the Scouts special since 1938. I've worn a lot of uniforms in my life, and those uniforms/badges/symbols represent the values and traditions of each organization. You can keep the uniforms and logos, but if you fundamentally change the espirit de corps , are you really the same group? 

But are they actually fundamentally changing the espirit de corps?  Your signature says you were in the Marines.  How does this not reflect the fact that women were once segregated from the corps, then only allowed in non-combats roles, and now are allowed in combat roles?  Has that actually changed the USMC or in any way limited their combat effectiveness?  Research says that it has not.  The only issue is that sexual assault, harassment, and other issues are actually being taken more seriously, and is in part why there is higher numbers since they are actually being reported rather than swept under the rug.

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2 minutes ago, FlamMan said:

 I never saw or heard of anything as you described, but that behavior certainly occurred many years ago but was not unique to the Madison scouts, there was plenty of gay harassment in many facets of society before we became tolerant and accepting.

 The earring thing was also not unique to the Madison scouts, right ear gay, left ear straight. What was unique to the Madison scouts was many members had earrings before it was acceptable for men to wear earrings. And yes most of the gay members had earings in the right ear and a straight members had earrings in their left ear.

Again, just because you never heard or saw it does not mean it did not happen.  The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.  And "many years ago" is the time period I am describing (the late 70's and early 80s are basically 40 years ago, and, at least according to your signature, predate and include the time you were in the corps).  Please recognize that I am not accusing you of such reprehensible behavior, I am simply noting that it happened, and was conducted by members of the organization we both participated in and care about.

Also, as an academic who studies systems and structures of inequality, I do not think society is as tolerant or accepting as you may (it might be better than it was, but is far from that being a universal reality).  If it was, the issues we are describing would not really be much ado of anything to anyone.  That this thread exists, is so contested, and so popular (in terms of number of response/variety of inputs) shows that.  It is also why it is interesting to see people conflate race and ethnicity with gender.  Although all are socially constructed, they operate quite differently, and have very different (although intertwined) histories.

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34 minutes ago, ndkbass said:

I heard this story from an alumnus in my extended family who marched in the late 70s and early 80s (and who continues to volunteer with the corps to this day):

After rehearsals (at various times of the year, so camps or all-days), some members would go into the downtown area and wait outside bars that gay men frequented until they closed so they could verbally harass and physically assault people.  That is a crime, and deeply despicable, and I do not doubt the veracity of the story.  I also have heard from other members in the mid 80s about wearing earrings on certain ears to signify their orientation, and how that was always questioned regardless of which ear/what signification was being presented.  Whether or not you participated or were aware of these reprehensible activities does not mean that it did not happen.

 

Also, your unwillingness to engage with the matter of transrights completely is rather revealing.

 

I am not saying I am a fan of Komnick's decision making in regards to staff hiring, show design, or anything else.  I have been, and probably will continue to be, a vocal critic of the current administration in general.  Heck, I missed part of an ensemble block in 2009 talking with him about all the issues I saw, and I had no problem calling out Dann to his face during corps meetings.  However, that does not prevent me from approving of and celebrating this decision.

 

Interesting-I never heard any of these stories during my time with the corps, nor from the countless staff/alums I know from the era you’re referring to. 

Cant say I buy it at all. 

On the contrary, I’ve heard many stories about members coming to the aide/rescue of members that were treated in the way you’re describing.

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1 minute ago, ndkbass said:

  Please recognize that I am not accusing you of such reprehensible behavior, I am simply noting that it happened, and was conducted by members of the organization we both participated in and care about.

 

Did it though? You’re basing it off one persons statement. 

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2 minutes ago, ndkbass said:

But are they actually fundamentally changing the espirit de corps? 

In my opinion, yes. It once was a fraternal order, championing the bonds formed between men. This was one of the major differentiators between the Scouts/Cavaliers and the rest of the corps out there.

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 Your signature says you were in the Marines.  How does this not reflect the fact that women were once segregated from the corps, then only allowed in non-combats roles, and now are allowed in combat roles?  Has that actually changed the USMC or in any way limited their combat effectiveness?

You're comparing apples and oranges. The Scouts are a private group, the Marines are publicly-funded. The Marine Corps doesn't exist solely as a character-building brotherhood (using music as the medium) for young adults, either.  It's a warfighting organization whose high standards exist to increase their ability to kill people. I don't care if women serve in the combat arms, so long as they're physically fit, mentally sharp, and just as lethal as the other Marines around them. If the Marine Corps allowed fat people, slobs, and conscientious objectors, that would change the espirit de corps. 

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2 minutes ago, tesmusic said:

Did it though? You’re basing it off one persons statement. 

I marched in 2007-2009 and there was definitely virulent homophobia and racism among certain members.  Does not mean they were open about it, or physically violent, but that they definitely expressed their own private opinions when they were in spaces that made them feel comfortable in doing so (such as the bus or sleeping circles).  So, yes.  As much as I am relying upon anecdotal evidence/eye-witness testimony from one source, I take it as extremely valid.  And, it is also indirectly corroborated by FlamMan who said that it existed as a societal-wide problem.  Since drum corps and Madison is a part of society, that does not mean that Madison was or is isolated from those societal-wide issues.

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As someone who was in the Cavaliers over two decades ago, I was thinking that letting women in would be wonderful! The "fraternity" and "brotherhood" that others cite tend to also create an echo chamber of toxic masculinity and homophobia. I did not enjoy that part as a gay man myself. Of course I still love the Cavaliers especially since they have Cavaliers rainbow shirts now! lol

I don't care if women join in [the ranks], so long as they're physically fit, mentally sharp, and just as [dedicated to music/drum corps] as the other [corps members] around them.

Congrats to the Madison Scouts!

Edited by Rylan
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3 minutes ago, Jofus said:

In my opinion, yes. It once was a fraternal order, championing the bonds formed between men. This was one of the major differentiators between the Scouts/Cavaliers and the rest of the corps out there.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The Scouts are a private group, the Marines are publicly-funded. The Marine Corps doesn't exist solely as a character-building brotherhood (using music as the medium) for young adults, either.  It's a warfighting organization whose high standards exist to increase their ability to kill people. I don't care if women serve in the combat arms, so long as they're physically fit, mentally sharp, and just as lethal as the other Marines around them. If the Marine Corps allowed fat people, slobs, and conscientious objectors, that would change the espirit de corps. 

The medium for Madison is music whereas the medium for Marines is the propensity for killing.  Funding aside, there is no other real difference.  Like you said that women who are capable of killing can increase the effectiveness of the Marines, members of all backgrounds can increase the effectiveness of Madison without altering the bonds formed.  Having been in multiple organizations, coed and not, the bond I had with other members was always the same.  We all sweated and sacrificed for the same thing.  Those ideals are higher than any sort of identifier like gender.  At least that is my opinion.  One of the biggest things I learned in my time in this activity as a whole was mutual respect for those individuals who sacrificed for the good of the whole.  That had and has nothing to do with their gender, orientation, or race/ethnicity.  Rather, it has to do with commitment.  I think we (and most people) would agree on that.  

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