vferrera

Madison Scouts now officially co-ed

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1 hour ago, BlueStainGlass said:

Ok I had no problems with the announcement but the register for 2020 is a slap in the face to the members. You admit that it's a failure and looking to next year before the first regional. 

While I sort of agree with your take, the timing also creates buzz while everyone (including potential marchers) is tuned into DCI and paying attention to the activity. If they announce it after the season has ended a lot less people would know about this until the following summer when they tune back in to DCI. 

Edit: Just realized they actually have their 2020 audition packets up already. 

Edited by Tupid_06

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53 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

there's 2 so far

Only one, Meagan.

Bonnie and Rebecca were Guest Artists while Megan was a Member.

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2 hours ago, skevinp said:

I've heard that accusation before, and it is a complete fail. 

The purpose of virtue signaling is to attempt to establish oneself as virtuous by denouncing someone else's actions.  Having such a purpose serves as an incentive to misrepresent those actions or the motives behind them, and is often accompanied by such misrepresentations in ways that are subtly hurtful and passively aggressively mean-spirited.  

The purpose of calling people out for virtue signaling is usually, in my observation, just to encourage them to stop virtue signaling because it hurts people.  Although calling it out could be misused in a virtue signaling way, asserting that has to be the case is patently ridiculous.  

If you point a gun at my grandmother and I yell "don't shoot!", I am not doing so because I want people to see me as better than you.  I am doing so because I don't want you to shoot my grandmother.  

The absence of logic in the way in which some people (e.g., certain members of the media) defend the practice suggests a desperation that is quite interesting.  

My point was that it's a fabricated term for political purposes in place of better terms that can better withstand scrutiny (or as you suggest, could better withstand abuse).

If I accuse someone of posturing with moral piety, I don't leave myself open for the return, because my accusation is not easily construed as the same posturing.  Use of the term virtue signaling has quickly become a moral posturing.

The application of 'harm' is imported in your definition.  I'm not sure that the assumption of 'harm' is foundational to that term as it was conceived or is commonly used.  The term is about what one person perceives about how another perceives theirself... and pointing it out for others to observe.

To get to where you are, one could say that another's moral piety is demeaning.  The term virtue signaling doesn't carry with it the complex meaning that 'demeaning moral piety' does (or some other combination of similar sentiments).  It's a 'dumb' term that pretends to be smart, and lots of people are quick to use it (and define it to suit their purpose).

Edited by cfirwin3

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This is a terrible decision by the Madison Scouts. 

It's another result of political correctness.  And wrong on multiple levels (and for the DCI forum morality police, no, I don't mean that having a corps with women is wrong! So just relax).  

Having a diversity of corps with different traditions is a healthy thing.  Valuing diversity gives more people choice.  If I want to be in an all-male corps one year, I can. If I don't, and want to be in a co-ed, I can. I have choices.  Women in drum corps have 21 choices.  Heck, there may be an "all female" drum corps one day -- that would be kind of cool.  Diversity is a good thing. 

First of all, it's not promoting discrimination to just simply exist as an all male-corps.  DCI has what 22 World Class corps and 21 of them are co-ed.  

Second, Madison Scouts are a private organization and they can uphold whatever traditions they want.  We have all female private colleges. We have all black private colleges.  We even have, sadly in my opinion, all black graduations.  So the people who cry discrimination, practice discrimination all the time, excluding one group or another.  But when it comes to an all male corps..."NO! We can't have that!"  

Third, no one, and I mean no one, in the last 20 years...has gone to a DCI concert, heard the Madison Scouts and said, "Gosh, they are only all male? They must really be a discriminatory drum corps! They must hate women."  Not one.  People go, "Oh wow, unique."  And move on.  

Fourth, and I have to challenge the posts I say that say "leave politics out of this discussion" - first of all, there's free speech in this country. It's a free forum. Second, by saying that you are really saying, "I just want to hear my side of the argument, 'traditional value people' need to shut up."  

Lastly, most of the people who voted for this in the Madison Scouts organization wouldn't dare label an all-female corps as "discriminatory" or practicing "discrimination," nor try to lobby to get them to accept men.  Why is that?  Ultimately this boils down to the political correctness that pervades our society in thinking that it must be "BAD" if it's all men. 

If you value diversity and choice in Drum Corps, you will not like this decision by the Scouts.  If you don't value those things, you'll love it. 

Edited by chris7997
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3 minutes ago, chris7997 said:

Second, Madison Scouts are a private organization and they can uphold whatever traditions do whatever they want. 

And they have chosen to be inclusive and include women.  It is done.  For a good (stated) reason.

Now is the time for all good men (and women) to support the Madison Scouts.

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Again, why is this statement okay to everyone

“There’s something magical about the feeling of an all-female guard,” said Lydia Marshall, head drum major of the Crossmen. “When it clicks in DCI, it is one of the most empowering and inspiring things that you can see. It is absolutely incredible to share the field with those ladies and be in the show with them.”

but insert "all-male" and "guys" in for "all-female" and "ladies" and now it is toxic and frowned upon?  Are guys not allowed to experience the magic?

Edited by Guitar1974
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17 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

Again, why is this statement okay to everyone

“There’s something magical about the feeling of an all-female guard,” said Lydia Marshall, head drum major of the Crossmen. “When it clicks in DCI, it is one of the most empowering and inspiring things that you can see. It is absolutely incredible to share the field with those ladies and be in the show with them.”

but insert "all-male" and "guys" in for "all-female" and "ladies" and now it is toxic and frowned upon?

I have heard people say that the Cavies guard is neat because they can do some more athletic things as a result of being all male, and I don't remember a lot of people saying it was toxic.

Edited by skevinp

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

The term ‘virtue signaling’ doesn't carry with it the complex meaning that 'demeaning moral piety' does (or some other combination of similar sentiments).  It's a 'dumb' term that pretends to be smart, and lots of people are quick to use it (and define it to suit their purpose).

Excellent analysis for a term that was likely made up by someone with a 7-year degree in humanities in order to sound like an academician, yet those of of us who already know how to * really * think know it’s just a load of (c)rap. 

Why, yes; I AM enjoying my current headspace, thank you. 🤡

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43 minutes ago, chris7997 said:

This is a terrible decision by the Madison Scouts. 

It's another result of political correctness.  And wrong on multiple levels (and for the DCI forum morality police, no, I don't mean that having a corps with women is wrong! So just relax).  

Having a diversity of corps with different traditions is a healthy thing.  Valuing diversity gives more people choice.  If I want to be in an all-male corps one year, I can. If I don't, and want to be in a co-ed, I can. I have choices.  Women in drum corps have 21 choices.  Heck, there may be an "all female" drum corps one day -- that would be kind of cool.  Diversity is a good thing. 

First of all, it's not promoting discrimination to just simply exist as an all male-corps.  DCI has what 22 World Class corps and 21 of them are co-ed.  

Second, Madison Scouts are a private organization and they can uphold whatever traditions they want.  We have all female private colleges. We have all black private colleges.  We even have, sadly in my opinion, all black graduations.  So the people who cry discrimination, practice discrimination all the time, excluding one group or another.  But when it comes to an all male corps..."NO! We can't have that!"  

Third, no one, and I mean no one, in the last 20 years...has gone to a DCI concert, heard the Madison Scouts and said, "Gosh, they are only all male? They must really be a discriminatory drum corps! They must hate women."  Not one.  People go, "Oh wow, unique."  And move on.  

Fourth, and I have to challenge the posts I say that say "leave politics out of this discussion" - first of all, there's free speech in this country. It's a free forum. Second, by saying that you are really saying, "I just want to hear my side of the argument, 'traditional value people' need to shut up."  

Lastly, most of the people who voted for this in the Madison Scouts organization wouldn't dare label an all-female corps as "discriminatory" or practicing "discrimination," nor try to lobby to get them to accept men.  Why is that?  Ultimately this boils down to the political correctness that pervades our society in thinking that it must be "BAD" if it's all men. 

If you value diversity and choice in Drum Corps, you will not like this decision by the Scouts.  If you don't value those things, you'll love it. 

the programs throughout DCI have, like WGI, gone so cookie-cutter this decision is not to be unexpected especially in the Republic of Madison. Mr. Beebe, may you rest despite it.

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