Ray Kimber

Time to Say Goodbye, after 15 years

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25 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

No (to your reading of my assertion)...

Wide ranging expenses is a reality.

Budget prioritization is a reality.

A sound system upgrade (a decade now after they have been implemented in some fashion... let's not forget that) may be worth holding off on those 6 mellophones or 3-4 tubas until next year.  And this is just the tip of the iceberg.  There are transportation, housing, uniform, staffing, etc. adjustments that can easily... EASILY absorb some sound equipment (again, that everybody has been using now for quite some time).

The opposite could be said when a sound system will do for the moment and those 4 tubas really need to get replaced... yesterday.

All drumcorps are buying new stuff all the time... and all drumcorps are keeping old stuff all the time.  there are choices year to year that affect a program in the long term.

Well as long as the equipment co-operates and needs replaced when your budget can handle it

my point is more stuff to buy/maintain, more expense. And addressing additional costs by tweaking the replacement dates isn’t always a viable option 

Edited by JimF-LowBari

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Remember when the sound systems were supposed to replace having all the redundant marimbas?

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Sadly, Drum Corps is almost gone in the northwest.  I stopped traveling to Indianapolis, because it is such a boring place to go. I sure wish DCI would move its championships. Including DCI finals as part of a summer vacation is not an option anymore.

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

No (to your reading of my assertion)...

Wide ranging expenses is a reality.

Budget prioritization is a reality.

A sound system upgrade (a decade now after they have been implemented in some fashion... let's not forget that) may be worth holding off on those 6 mellophones or 3-4 tubas until next year.  And this is just the tip of the iceberg.  There are transportation, housing, uniform, staffing, etc. adjustments that can easily... EASILY absorb some sound equipment (again, that everybody has been using now for quite some time).

The opposite could be said when a sound system will do for the moment and those 4 tubas really need to get replaced... yesterday.

All drumcorps are buying new stuff all the time... and all drumcorps are keeping old stuff all the time.  there are choices year to year that affect a program in the long term.

You lost me at "easily".  Even your explanation serves to prove that coping with these expenses does not come easily.

Actually, you lost me at "iceberg".  It is the continual addition of more such toys that grew this iceberg from what was once only the tip.

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3 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

You lost me at "easily".  Even your explanation serves to prove that coping with these expenses does not come easily.

Actually, you lost me at "iceberg".  It is the continual addition of more such toys that grew this iceberg from what was once only the tip.

Just having flashback to years back when discussing how economy tanking in some areas led to some local corps disbanding. Always had someone saying it was due to bad corps management. Factories and stores closing with people moving out but.... corps management should have been able to handle how that hit the corps

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Just now, JimF-LowBari said:

Well as long as the equipment co-operates and needs replaced when your budget can handle it

my point is more stuff to buy/maintain, more expense. And addressing additional costs by tweaking the replacement dates isn’t always a viable option 

We'll say that it is always EVENTUALLY a viable option.  All options are eventual if not immediate.  We can all complain about the here and now, but next year has a different story as did last year.

This argument commits a fallacy of cherry picking specific groups at specific moments in time and applying a specific demand that may not actually exist in the grand scheme apart from all of these restrictions.  We could still be arguing that the expense to replace G horns with Bb is too great for corps to be competitive... that it is an unnecessary "additional cost" in order to be competitive (in spite of that handy dandy win from the Cavaliers in 2000, but that's another story).  But here we are in a day and age when nobody plays G anymore (as we are now with amplification use).

I still maintain that the creative (and point scoring) benefits concerning innovations with techno sound design boils down to the application of creativity and NOT the mere application of equipment.  The winning shows aren't necessarily the biggest budgets and that has always been true.

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4 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Even if true, does that make every such additional expense okay?

Yes, if the corps themselves decide that a particular item is ok to use. 

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Just now, cixelsyd said:

You lost me at "easily".  Even your explanation serves to prove that coping with these expenses does not come easily.

Actually, you lost me at "iceberg".  It is the continual addition of more such toys that grew this iceberg from what was once only the tip.

"easily" refers to the small amount of budget that adequate amplification equipment can consume in relation to the rest of the budget (which is the "iceberg").

Unless there are systemic organizational flaws, a corps budget will inflate with time, and it isn't necessarily because of rise in cost.  Corps can EASILY plan to purchase some sound equipment.  It's just not that expensive.  It CAN be expensive... but it doesn't have to be.  Consider what the needs are... how many channels of sound?... how many amps for stereo and where can they be placed?  It CAN be a rabbit hole, but it doesn't have to be in order to play the game and play it well.

Again, what I am talking about isn't theoretical.  It has already happened.  This argument is about a time gone by.  All I have to do to support what I am saying is present the list of current DCI members.

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20 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

We'll say that it is always EVENTUALLY a viable option.  All options are eventual if not immediate.  We can all complain about the here and now, but next year has a different story as did last year.

This argument commits a fallacy of cherry picking specific groups at specific moments in time and applying a specific demand that may not actually exist in the grand scheme apart from all of these restrictions.  We could still be arguing that the expense to replace G horns with Bb is too great for corps to be competitive... that it is an unnecessary "additional cost" in order to be competitive (in spite of that handy dandy win from the Cavaliers in 2000, but that's another story).  But here we are in a day and age when nobody plays G anymore (as we are now with amplification use).

I still maintain that the creative (and point scoring) benefits concerning innovations with techno sound design boils down to the application of creativity and NOT the mere application of equipment.  The winning shows aren't necessarily the biggest budgets and that has always been true.

Not discussing if corps should buy or use certain equipment. Just saying the more stuff, the more cost and harder to deal with financially. How this relates to cherry picking certain groups btsoom (beats the .... out of me).

and to repeat any (even small) increase in cost is still an increase... in anything

Edited by JimF-LowBari

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Just now, JimF-LowBari said:

Not discussing if corps should buy or use certain equipment. Just saying the more stuff, the more cost and harder to deal with financially. How this relates to cherry picking certain groups btsoom (beats the .... out of me).

 But what is the point of your point, given the discussion?  Your general point is applicable to all areas of cost.

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