Blue Devils -- Too good for the rest of DCI?

[CAtenhut]

1 hour ago, DWW11 said:

You absolutely minimize the pressure they face. They are an internationally recognized group of young people who are EXPECTED to be near perfect. Regardless of how well taught, regardless of the advantages you feel they may otherwise have,  i don’t know many 18-21 year olds that could handle that pressure 20-30 times over a couple of months.  If they have an off night, not only do they let themselves down, but they let down their alumni as well. 

You definitely don't sound like a BD alum. Or if you are, you definitely do not speak for the majority.

We are no more disappointed when our corps has a bad performance or does not reach their full potential as anyone. For some corps, it's making finals or improving their placement/score, or medaling. But aside from that, more than anything, it is about physical and personal growth and the amazing experience. And to think BD members feel added pressures of not winning and disappointing alumni is silly and way off.

Edited August 1, 2023 by CAtenhut

[wilme861]

2 hours ago, ContraFart said:

This plays into what I said about the activity not existing for the fan. It simply doesn't. It really only exists for the marching members.

However if winning was not on the mind of some of the top tier performers, then why do so many go from a top 5 corps to BD than the other way around? 

100% there are kids that go to BD just because they want to win. I'm willing to bet though a large number of them also go because of that staff and to learn a BD show. I never marched BD or even auditioned but I would love to go back in time and do a year JUST because I want to learn a show like they teach it. So different from any other marching group I've ever been in. Just organic, let's figure this out and see what happens approach is so weird and mind boggling to me.

Just to give a couple examples of some of my percussion friends from when we marched. One went to SCV as it was his dream to march there. One went to Cavaliers because he had a hard on for McIntosh (only one of us who got gold btw). One went to Phantom because of Renick. One marched Madison because it was local and he didn't feel he could make Phantom or Cavaliers. And last, one went to BD. Why? Because of a friend suggesting he would love playing there and the staff.

Now this was the 2000s. Obviously my friend group isn't indicative of kids today and not meant to suggest it's the majority opinion. But just saying, not everyone cares about winning in these music "sports". I mean if you think DCI is bad, take a look at BOA... You have a much higher chance of being a DCI champion than you do of being a BOA champion.

[DWW11]

11 minutes ago, CAtenhut said:

You definitely don't sound like a BD alum. Or if you are, you definitely do not speak for the majority.

We are no more disappointed when our corps has a bad performance or does not reach their full potential as anyone. For some corps, it's making finals or improving their placement/score, or medaling. But aside from that, more than anything, it is about physical and personal growth and the amazing experience. And to think BD members feel added pressures of not winning and disappointing alumni is silly and way off.

I didn’t say alumni WOULD feel disappointed, i said the MM likely feel they WOULD disappoint. 

i have never marched, so my comments are based strictly on speculation. I absolutely defer to people who did. But i have been around other youth activity “dynasties” (national and local) and know that those kids absolutely felt an unspoken pressure to maintain. 

my support for BD would never waver if they didn’t win. And i would applaud the MMs just as fervently as i always do. 

[MikeD]

Admin hat here...

Please dial back the personal comments about other posters. Per the guidelines personal attacks are not permitted.

 

 

 

[resipsaloquitur]

14 hours ago, MikeD said:

Admin hat here...

Please dial back the personal comments about other posters. Per the guidelines personal attacks are not permitted.

 

 

 

In b4 the close..

[jwillis35]

17 hours ago, ContraFart said:

2), and because of the realizations that nothing is ever going to change. 

I have and will always root for David, I just wish people would stop trying to convince me that Goliath is so good. 

I get the frustration. I am sure you are super amazing guy and I would hate to see you leave DCP over your frustrations. Clearly it is not my job to tell you what to like, who to root for, or what topics to bring up. I just hope you can find some happiness in the performances from these corps. There have been many cases of people burning out over the scores and perhaps the judging process in DCI. So I get that frustration. All my best!

[TexasPRfan]

I think a thread like this is really healthy - as long as everyone stays respectful and doesn't take contrary opinions personally.  That's sadly difficult to do in the climate of the country these days.  But it IS possible.  We are all smart people who care about the activity.

3 things:

1. Mr. Willis, your posts are so spot on in so many ways.  Always thoughtful.  Please never stop.
2. I applaud BD for having an incredible program, smartly managed to deliver incredible resources invested in a great staff and great culture.  And year in and year out since 2010, I've loved almost every BD show.  This show is one of their best - possibly since the Fellini show.  Bravo!!!  It's HEALTHY for the activity to have a leader pushing everyone to rise up.
3. I do think the activity needs to consider how a spending cap could be done, agreeing with a couple of posters here.  I think you limit that cap to the Designers, Teaching Staff, Spend on Props, Equipment, Electronics, Uniforms/Costumes - basically everything but care of the members.  It's going to be very difficult to do with DCI admin staff not really having much power at all.  But it would help competitive balance a bit and keep corps from over spending to chase a placement then ultimately fold - or the quagmire that hit SCV.  You could tie it to a % of revenue to help keep corps from over reaching, but tying to revenue doesn't help the competitive landscape.  I've toyed with this idea in my head for a couple of years now, but who knows if a reasonable solution is ever going to be even remotely feasible without a major restructure shifting power from the individual corps to DCI.

Just my 2 cents - and again, I love BD and their show this year and respect all the hard work by the members, staff and everyone else to deliver that amazing product.  

Harvey

Edited August 1, 2023 by TexasPRfan
Grammar

[ContraFart]

49 minutes ago, TexasPRfan said:

I think a thread like this is really healthy - as long as everyone stays respectful and doesn't take contrary opinions personally.  That's sadly difficult to do in the climate of the country these days.  But it IS possible.  We are all smart people who care about the activity.

3 things:

1. Mr. Willis, your posts are so spot on in so many ways.  Always thoughtful.  Please never stop.
2. I applaud BD for having an incredible program, smartly managed to deliver incredible resources invested in a great staff and great culture.  And year in and year out since 2010, I've loved almost every BD show.  This show is one of their best - possibly since the Fellini show.  Bravo!!!  It's HEALTHY for the activity to have a leader pushing everyone to rise up.
3. I do think the activity needs to consider how a spending cap could be done, agreeing with a couple of posters here.  I think you limit that cap to the Designers, Teaching Staff, Spend on Props, Equipment, Electronics, Uniforms/Costumes - basically everything but care of the members.  It's going to be very difficult to do with DCI admin staff not really having much power at all.  But it would help competitive balance a bit and keep corps from over spending to chase a placement then ultimately fold - or the quagmire that hit SCV.  You could tie it to a % of revenue to help keep corps from over reaching, but timing to revenue doesn't help the competitive landscape.  I've toyed with this idea in my head for a couple of years now, but who knows if a reasonable solution is ever going to be even remotely feasible without a major restructure shifting power from the individual corps to DCI.

Just my 2 cents - and again, I love BD and their show this year and respect all the hard work by the members, staff and everyone else to deliver that amazing product.  

Harvey

The props, equipment, electronics, costumes, etc are not the main cost of the activity. They are normally static costs, or costs that are mitigated by reselling the equipment, or in the case of costumes, incorporated into the tour fees. The number 1 cost that is not tour related (food, fuel and lodging) is payroll. If you really want to limit props, maybe limit the number of vehicles/tractor trailers a corps is allowed to bring to a show, but I see that a futile. 

The payroll question is interesting. On paper it sounds good, but I am wondering about the reality. It could hurt things such as staff coverage as while we think about the big names getting all the money, you see these 40 person brass staffs because some of these techs are only on the road for a few days at a time. I also wonder if it would actually break up the big name staffs like at Boston or Crown. Would less pay make Matt Harloff look to go to another corps, or would he walk away? (That was a random example and in no way reflects on his character) Finally what about the corps who are not close to spending the max. Would they then feel pressure to spend more, therefor putting them in a worse financial position? 

The reason why I am nihilistic, not on the continuation of the activity, but rather on the competitive fairness is that I feel that there is no way to enforce parity whatsoever. Some of the ideas sound good on paper, but will hurt more than help, or cannot be done at all since we cannot tell kids and parents where to spend their money.

[Vuitton]

There will come a time when BD’s reign ends. All reigns come to an end. We all my not live to see it happen, but it will happen.

[bluecoats88]

On 8/1/2023 at 3:07 PM, ContraFart said:

The props, equipment, electronics, costumes, etc are not the main cost of the activity. They are normally static costs, or costs that are mitigated by reselling the equipment, or in the case of costumes, incorporated into the tour fees. The number 1 cost that is not tour related (food, fuel and lodging) is payroll. If you really want to limit props, maybe limit the number of vehicles/tractor trailers a corps is allowed to bring to a show, but I see that a futile. 

The payroll question is interesting. On paper it sounds good, but I am wondering about the reality. It could hurt things such as staff coverage as while we think about the big names getting all the money, you see these 40 person brass staffs because some of these techs are only on the road for a few days at a time. I also wonder if it would actually break up the big name staffs like at Boston or Crown. Would less pay make Matt Harloff look to go to another corps, or would he walk away? (That was a random example and in no way reflects on his character) Finally what about the corps who are not close to spending the max. Would they then feel pressure to spend more, therefor putting them in a worse financial position? 

The reason why I am nihilistic, not on the continuation of the activity, but rather on the competitive fairness is that I feel that there is no way to enforce parity whatsoever. Some of the ideas sound good on paper, but will hurt more than help, or cannot be done at all since we cannot tell kids and parents where to spend their money.

people who think drum corps inxtructors are making large amounts of money are way off base.