wvu80 Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said: I'll do you one better. Scrap the competition and share the take home winnings evenly. Or, heresy, base it on who traveled the furthest to get there. I think I know what you mean. Have the competition, but you're not allowed to keep score unless you're the grandmother of one of the participants. Brilliant! It sounds exactly like how little kid's soccer games are played. Everybody gets a trophy and all the parents go home happy! Related true story: I used to own a pee wee cheerleader and so off they went off to nationals and competed. There was a division for every possible combination of girls possible. Large, small, mixed, age, hair color... For the traditional end of the year banquet all the trophies were given out. One table had a huge amount of trophies and the label "National Champion" and had each girl's name engraved on it. National champions. What an accomplishment! But I was a bit confused. One of the cheer leader moms was just beaming over the National Champion trophies, she was so proud of the accomplishment the girls got in the Small Under 8 left handed blind in one Eye division! Being the idiot I am, I started a conversation with her: Wow, that's great! I didn't know our squad won National Champions. But I thought we finished fourth? Without hesitation and still smiling, she said and I swear this is true; she said "they're all national champions." Edited August 13, 2023 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 17 minutes ago, wvu80 said: I think I know what you mean. Have the competition, but you're not allowed to keep score unless you're the grandmother of one of the participants. Brilliant! It sounds exactly like how little kid's soccer games are played. Everybody gets a trophy and all the parents go home happy! Related true story: I used to own a pee wee cheerleader and they went off to nationals and competed. There was a division for every possible combination of squads. For the traditional end of the year banquet all the trophies were given out. One table had a huge amount of trophies and the label "National Champion" and had each girl's name engraved on it. But I was a bit confused. One of the cheer leader moms was just beaming over the National Champion trophies, she was so proud of the accomplishment the girls got in the Small Under 8 left handed blind in one Eye division! Being the idiot I am, I started a conversation with her: Wow, that's great! I didn't know our squad won National Champions. But I thought we finished fourth? Without hesitation and still smiling, she said and I swear this is true; she said "they're all national champions." Most folks jump straight to infantilization like this which is never anywhere close to my intention. It's not about being a champion, because that rarely has lasting pedagogical power. It's not about beating or losing to anyone, which is an immature way of valuing your own work. You're talking apples and I'm not talking about oranges or even about another fruit. You're talking apples and I'm talking the atoms they're made of. It's not about everyone winning because I'm literally not talking about competition at all in any way shape or form. It's about cross-pollination of creative ideas, exploration, and product. Pit young people against each other and some of that is bound to get lost... not all, but some. Don't even get me started on what grown adults do in this activity to sully competition and make it more toxic than it should be. The best art I've experienced existed outside of competition and was fed by collaboration and respectful co-existence. Others have argued (even the past few days, in top threads) that competition sullies art. It's not just me. Here's a whole dang book about it: https://www.amazon.com/No-Contest-Case-Against-Competition/dp/0395631254 But I'm not going to argue this point further. If folks can't see the world beyond competition (a truly American aspect of contemporary life on this continent) then I don't care to belabor the point, especially if infantalizing is the only counterargument. Trying to talk Americans out of competition is like trying to talk them out of football or apple pie. I can't help that I don't like either that much, and happen to see value in key lime and sumo wrestling. I'm not trying to make others like them, unlike most here who tell me it's apple pie and football or the highway. I learned this marching with Vanguard and learning from legends, by the way. And one of my corps' seasons was one of the precious few to beat BD this century. 🫢 Even then, the staff was happier than we were. I get it. I'm not trying to convince you. It's not going to happen in drum corps. But I'm allowed to have an educated opinion. And as I said, it's the hill I'll die on. No need infantalize it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 55 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said: I'll do you one better. Scrap the competition and share the take home winnings evenly. Or, heresy, base it on who traveled the furthest to get there. Literally nobody here wants that except me, pretty sure. It's the hill I'll die on though. I am totally on board with either sharing winnings equally or basing it on who traveled the furthest. Both of those things would help the survival of as many corps as possible. Scrapping the competitive aspect of DCI will be the swiftest action one can take to create the downfall of this activity. And before anyone says it, yes I know the COVID year happened and no, the actions of audiences during a once in a lifetime global pandemic is not representative of how this activity would continue if scores were eliminated for the rest of the activity’s existence 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, Chippy said: What the heck is a Timeout message on Flo? Stops the stream. It happened a couple times last night. Middle of Bloo, and couldn’t get the stream back. I changed tvs really quick but missed the rest of that show. Never hear back from Flo. 😡 I didn’t hear about anyone else having this issue, nor did I. With that being the case, this wasn’t a Flo server issue and rather an issue with your ISP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, Cappybara said: I am totally on board with either sharing winnings equally or basing it on who traveled the furthest. Both of those things would help the survival of as many corps as possible. Scrapping the competitive aspect of DCI will be the swiftest action one can take to create the downfall of this activity. And before anyone says it, yes I know the COVID year happened and no, the actions of audiences during a once in a lifetime global pandemic is not representative of how this activity would continue if scores were eliminated for the rest of the activity’s existence Thank you for not infantalizing non-competition. There are countless models outside of the 2021 season that speak to the value of non-competition. That's simply the only example the activity has ever permitted to exist and therefore also brings value to the conversation. Qualitative data is still data even if only a fluke. I also agreed it's literally never going to happen. Doesn't change my stance on the matter. What I'm pointing out as that instructors and designers should have the freedom to disconnect their creativity and instruction from needing to beat other corps within a flawed judging system in order to influence the budget and recruitment (and therefor organizational survival.) Right now, as always, the incentives for great making great art and excellent educational opportunities are sullied by competition, IMHO. I want to see what drum corps looks like without that. That's all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said: Thank you for not infantalizing non-competition. There are countless models outside of the 2021 season that speak to the value of non-competition. That's simply the only example the activity has ever permitted to exist and therefore also brings value to the conversation. Qualitative data is still data even if only a fluke. I also agreed it's literally never going to happen. Doesn't change my stance on the matter. What I'm pointing out as that instructors and designers should have the freedom to disconnect their creativity and instruction from needing to beat other corps within a flawed judging system in order to influence the budget and recruitment (and therefor organizational survival.) Right now, as always, the incentives for great making great art and excellent educational opportunities are sullied by competition, IMHO. I want to see what drum corps looks like without that. That's all. There’s no need to infantilize it, it’s still a valid model and suggestion. It’s just one that I think will greatly decrease the interest both marchers and audiences have for the activity, and therefore I simply don’t agree that it is the right model for DCI. And I completely agree with you that it would be nice to allow corps to make art without having to worry about certain things that competition introduces, particularly budget issues. And that is why I’m in full support of sharing winnings equally or basing it off of who travels the most. Financially, I am all for any move that promotes parity within DCI and allows corps that are struggling a bit more financially than others to have as many resources as possible for a good and safe member experience. Doing so would prolong the survival of this activity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevingamin Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 12 hours ago, KVG_DC said: Kevin is ahead of my Flo stream....it's spoilering! When I say LIVE From the Stands, I MEAN IT. 😂 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, kevingamin said: When I say LIVE From the Stands, I MEAN IT. 😂 My man was LIVE AF last night lol 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KVG_DC Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 It’s replay time on flo! Who’s watching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 Congratulations to the Blue Devils, Bluecoats, and Crown for achieving Medal Status this year! What a season! See you all in 2024! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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