DCI and SOA being sued?

[scheherazadesghost]

11 minutes ago, rjohn76 said:

Taking charge when they don't have the legal authority to do so could also land DCI (or any other entity) on the receiving end of a lawsuit (ex. wrongful termination, defamation, etc.).  There's a fine line between being proactive in the interest of member safety, and being reckless in the pursuit of member safety.

I have a similar empathy for the difficult position I've put my own corps in, honestly. I know they don't want to (and don't have the expertise or scope of practice to) be therapists for the members and alumni who endured harm while under their care. I totally get that.

At the same time, the mission/vision/values of these organizations should at least be to do no harm. I think it's safe to say most, if not all, have failed at that at one point or another.

If that's the case, what is their responsibility to those they failed? And how can the general public/drum corps community hold them accountable for reconciliation? If nothing else, the incentive should be to enrich the alumni pool for potential donations, volunteerism, and patronage. That reasoning is a bit superficial, but valid nonetheless.

I'd prefer these orgs dedicated themselves to the actual, difficult, intense work of thoughtfully caring about those they harmed, stopped seeing them as liabilities, and listened to the hurt, the lifelong injury, and the solutions we survivors bring to the table. Again, to this point, we seem to be nothing more than liabilities to be mitigated and silenced.

__

Separately, @JimF-LowBari, I sensed your frustration above and know you take survivor safety seriously. I'm incredibly frustrated by SS's limited scope in drum corps as well.

Edited October 12, 2023 by scheherazadesghost
clarity

[IllianaLancerContra]

1 hour ago, mingusmonk said:

 

This very case is bound to get into the territory of law enforcement involvement. While it may seem black and white: Called police = justice was served, the details and timelines of this incident that were shared initially will likely show the grey areas and pitfalls of those assumptions. 

Wasn’t there an incident in 2019 (or 18?) in Indy where Cadets member allegedly assaulted another in hotel Corps was staying in where Police were called?  Not sure if anything came of it. 
 

 

[Jeff Ream]

2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

No TLDR here. This is all important for those who still bother to read through this mess. (Edit to add: actually, just read @Lance's post above for a TLDR.)

I haven't seen anyone here argue that things haven't gotten better in the last number of decades. I see people saying it's not good enough yet. There's a big difference there. And the people saying the latter are doing so because there are too many young people who have marched in the last 5 years telling us they had adverse experiences marching. The training isn't enough. Period. I've been saying that since I came back two years ago. It simply isn't. There are still members marching in 2023 who don't know who to report their experiences to, or even if they have the right to report their concerns. That's a serious problem. And solutions and improvements presented aren't cutting it. Sorry DCI and drum corps, no cookie for you.

The abuses that some survivors endured do not fall under the jurisdiction of authorities like the police. Mine didn't and a solid chunk of the nearly 60 instances that have been disclosed to me that happened at Vanguard didn't either. There is no law against the psychological abuse that happens to young adults in drum corps. There is no law against weigh ins. There is no law against the behaviors that have lead to decades' long eating disorders. I've spoken to a current-cop in the Santa Clara region about these things. There's nothing they can do. In those cases, yes, the wimpy whistleblowing entities available are the only recourse.

Of course, if the abuse endured can be reported to police that should be considered an option. But young people don't go into drum corps knowing when these kinds of behaviors cross that threshold (because they don't go in expecting these things to happen in a youth arts education setting.) And if they don't have the family/loved one support to help them identify that, sometimes going to MAASIN or other some such entities can help advise them about next steps. While limiting additional retraumatization.

Very few situations here are as black-and-white as automatically, immediately go to the cops. They simply aren't. Young people need help identifying that until the drum corps reporting and training gets better. Because the drum corps should be making that abundantly clear, as well as following through with reporting structures when their procedures require this of them. I think some are getting better, but again, obviously not fast enough.

Respectfully, no. Survivors can go to SS, but that's not generally what I advise, because again, SS barely tracks what happens in non-NGBs. I have never gotten the sense that they report back to DCI. So no. Again, no. They are advisory only. In the same vein as The Army of Survivors and the Courage First Athletes Helpline.

Going to a lawyer is an option, but not all young people will have access to that resource. And again, not all abuses fall under the jurisdiction of police in their region. I'm not saying don't do these things, I'm saying it's important to keep in mind the complex constellation of resources, and never assume that all of those resources are always available to young people. Nor that all survivors should always take the same route.

Also, going to the police can be just as retraumatizing as any of the other entities. So to assume that's a quick fix is also problematic, especially if young people don't have a solid, reliable support system backing them. Same for lawyers, who ideally have their client's best interest in mind, but who are known for having ulterior motives as well. MAASIN is the only entity that appears, by my own experience, to keep this complex constellation of resources in mind when advising survivors. Even MAASIN has their own motives though and many of their staff are working for drum corps.  Still, they also have mental health professionals on their team, something none of the other entities so far mention maintain. THIS IS KEY, as they are the only ones to prioritize the mental health of survivors. DCI doesn't do that. Drum corps rarely, if ever, do that.

A young person who goes to a drum corps assuming they'll have a positive experience, who then is demolished by abuse, is quite very likely traumatized. Assuming they have the capacity to go to the police or to a lawyer means those making the assumptions don't know what supporting survivors is actually like. I've spoken to people whose abuses happened decades ago who are still traumatized by them. The young people today who are able to access resources like the police and lawyers are outliers in my experience. Amazing ones. Courageous ones. But, especially if young people have limited support circles, one should not assume that the police and lawyers are automatically the best route. Sometimes, they can severely exacerbate poor mental health.

Each case is incredibly unique. There is no silver bullet. Perhaps I should make a flow chart 'cause you can't assume what has worked for one survivor will work for another. And then, to assume that drum corps want anything to do with righting individual situations is also wrong. In my experience, they've already moved on and ONLY want to extract teachable moments and solutions from those survivors, rather than apologizing for the mistake and doing the work of reconciliation.

sadly to many in power, MAASIN is viewed as terrorists out to blow everything up

[Terri Schehr]

21 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Wasn’t there an incident in 2019 (or 18?) in Indy where Cadets member allegedly assaulted another in hotel Corps was staying in where Police were called?  Not sure if anything came of it. 
 

 

Yes and I have no idea. It’s just kind of poofed. 

[Jeff Ream]

22 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Wasn’t there an incident in 2019 (or 18?) in Indy where Cadets member allegedly assaulted another in hotel Corps was staying in where Police were called?  Not sure if anything came of it. 
 

 

yes. it was reported to the authorities right away, and when it the case was closed, then the students i guess guardian came forward. it appeared to be a whole lot of other agendas involved, and not all enacted by the student themselves. details are in the archives here, but from everything i remember seeing, the Cadets themselves did everything by the book or pretty close to it to get it to the next level for investigation by the authorities and made the changes needed for the remainder of finals week. the real drama started when the person claiming to act on behalf of the student went public.

[scheherazadesghost]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

sadly to many in power, MAASIN is viewed as terrorists out to blow everything up

Using warlike language is hyperbolic. My fellow alum do this too. It simultaneously belittles the gravity of war while attempting to elevate the significance of the feelings of those who did the harm but are unwilling to acknowledge or accept it. DCI also shouldn't be so weak (and I don't think they are) that informed, responsible survivors and their supports can't raise their valid concerns without "destroying" the activity. This is a hyperbolic mindset and nearly attempts to turn DCI into the victim here. Unacceptable.

Anyway, if this is how DCI views MAASIN, then by my own experiences with both, DCI is misinformed. MAASIN actually went out of their way to soften my potential actions, not to protect DCI and the corps, per se, but to make the greatest impact with as little damage as possible. Anyone cleaning up DCI's and drum corps' messes right now are going to be imperfect, but at least someone's trying to do it. Any reasonable adult in the room with experience outside of drum corps might say why not make peace and enter into dialogue? Grow up, DCI. Put your big girl pants on and talk to the people cleaning up your messes.

And to be clear, I'm not speaking at you, Jeff... but at this perspective. ('Cause as you noted, "sadly...")

Edited October 12, 2023 by scheherazadesghost

[HockeyDad]

1 hour ago, rjohn76 said:

Taking charge when they don't have the legal authority to do so could also land DCI (or any other entity) on the receiving end of a lawsuit (ex. wrongful termination, defamation, etc.).  There's a fine line between being proactive in the interest of member safety, and being reckless in the pursuit of member safety.

No. DCI directs that each corps has one adult monitor in each bus (just making stuff up here) or you won’t be entered in your next show. That’s the kind of actions I’m thinking about. That’s nowhere in the same galaxy as reckless. And I get that we live in a litigious society but lawsuit?  Just no. 
Someone said, and I think it was Theodore Roosevelt - at times of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing; the next best thing is the wrong thing; and the worst thing you can do is nothing.   It is past time for DCI to act. 

[IllianaLancerContra]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

sadly to many in power, MAASIN is viewed as terrorists out to blow everything up

Then the “many in power” are doing nothing more than victim blaming.  They should be ashamed of themselves. 

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Using warlike language is hyperbolic. My fellow alum do this too. It simultaneously belittles the gravity of war while attempting to elevate the significance of the feelings of those who did the harm but are unwilling to acknowledge or accept it. DCI also shouldn't be so weak (and I don't think they are) that informed, responsible survivors and their supports can't raise their valid concerns without "destroying" the activity. This is a hyperbolic mindset and nearly attempts to turn DCI into the victim here. Unacceptable.

Anyway, if this is how DCI views MAASIN, then by my own experiences with both, DCI is misinformed. MAASIN actually went out of their way to soften my potential actions, not to protect DCI and the corps, per se, but to make the greatest impact with as little damage as possible. Anyone cleaning up DCI's and drum corps' messes right now are going to be imperfect, but at least someone's trying to do it. Any reasonable adult in the room with experience outside of drum corps might say why not make peace and enter into dialogue? Grow up, DCI. Put your big girl pants on and talk to the people cleaning up your messes.

And to be clear, I'm not speaking at you, Jeff... but at this perspective. ('Cause as you noted, "sadly...")

i used those words intentionally, as they were used in a conversation i was a part of.

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Then the “many in power” are doing nothing more than victim blaming.  They should be ashamed of themselves. 

not disagreeing. but as i have said many times, and have been proven right, DCI is only proactive when they are actually reactive.