When will the Bluecoats win their championship?

[BoxVSoprano]

Blue Devils are to upset to let it happen in the future. b**bs Now if,it is because leading corps haunted by 80s!

dude, you never make any sense.

[Jared_mello]

They need an updated uni (something a bit more unique...I personally liked the more fitted navy blue from '94...).

That was my favorite one, too. I agree about the uniforms though; while professional looking and "neat," the fit isn't one that is condusive to top placements in visual captions, and this hasn't been the case since the early 90's. It's gotten better over the years, but the fitting and overall design of the uniforms still isn't as crisp or clean looking as a corps like the Blue Devils.

In my opinion, Bluecoats can do it if they are extremely smart about programming. They also really need an Adam Sage/Scott Chandler/Andy Toth to take over the guard to separate them from BK, Crown, etc in guard.

They were better than corps like BK and Crown in guard for most of the season, but unfortunate judging draws for big shows doesn't really help in showcasing a strong final result. APPARENTLY the wind randomly picked up finals night during their run, and wasn't really a problem or factor in anyone else's show, as well? Not sure if that's true, but I did hear it from people on and off the field that night.

Bluecoats need to stop playing by the rules and give themselves a bigger challenge if they ever want to win it and not just finish well. I said it about this year but I believe it's been true for several years, that they program a middle tier show. They never push themselves to be as creative as the competition at the top, and as much as we don't like to admit it, show design is the element that separates the best from the rest.

They know how to march and play. Now they need to figure out how to program to dominate.

Agreed. I feel the concept was there (from the standpoint of innovativeness and "forward thinking" when compared to the upper echelon of DCI), but the depiction of the concept wasn't as challenging as the corps above them.

It's a testament to the organization and staff, and surely a huge reason explaining why the corps currently is where it is within DCI, that the Bluecoats haven't really had a show that was "over their heads" since this whole momentous climb towards 4th has been going on. Actually, that may not have ever been the case, since the corps made it into finals in 1987. The shows seem to always be a little above where the talent level is, so that the kids push themselves to acheive whatever the difficulty is, and generally succeed in getting to the point where the show they're performing places as high as it's capable of placing. The fact that the corps always has an incredible last week or two before finals, and a previously unprecedented finals show, also plays into the gradual rise in placement. In the past though, I wouldn't say that the corps has "played it safe," more so that they played it "smart" instead. The slow, methodical rise in the top 12 has been something coordinated over a long period of time, and has entailed exactly what the staff has intended it to. I suppose in the context of this discussion, you could say the corps is playing it safe, because they're not pulling a Boston 2001 and trying to shoot for a title after the first year the corps shows the capability of competiting at the highest level of DCI. Within the context of the intentions of the Bluecoats though, I guess the corps isn't really playing it safe, they're just doing exactly what it takes to move up a spot or two every season.

I guess that time is coming soon though, where risks will need to be taken to keep getting better. Beating the corps that are above the Bluecoats right now is something that hasn't been done by an "outsider" in decades, and I'm not too sure if they can be beaten with a program written to be a little higher than the talent level. Nothing against the talent level, because I think it's just as high as any corps above them, I'm more so talking about the show being relative to that. I think that the top three corps write their shows to be more difficult relative to the talent level than the Bluecoats do, and that probably simply comes from the fact that those three corps are writing shows every year to compete for a title. Like I was saying before, the time is coming soon where the Bluecoats SHOULD be trying to compete for a title, and if that's going to be the case, then this advancement in challenge (technically, intellectually, emotionally, etc.) has to be the case. It's not worth criticism in the past, because again...GETTING to 4th was the carefully crafted, methodical aspect of it. Nowadays in drum corps, you rarely see shows in the top three that come across like they're written to come in third or second...it's usually shows that aren't performed as cleanly as the first place corps, and therefore wind up a point or two below them. It's pretty evident that BD's show this year wasn't written for 3rd, it was a first place show that just wound up there because of either execution, or the luck of two other corps simply being better on Saturday night. Back on topic about the Bluecoats, breaking into the top 3, the new challenge, is the part where the corps is going to need to get out of their comfort zone, write a title-contending show (both visually and musically; much can be done in both aspects), and hope (/insist) that the members realize what they're capable of. I personally feel that it's time that both the staff and the members need to make the expectation and goal, to be the best drum corps in the activity.

I hope I didn't repeat myself much. I just woke up, and have written on here....twice, I think, since getting home. Hopefully I'm not too rusty. :)

[JFitz19]

The question becomes: is the staff capable of writing a championship show? Although the rise of the Bluecoats these past few years has been impressive, this poll shows that a large percentage of respondents thinks they will never win. What's going on with this? All the remaining six top finishers from 2006 have won. All six, it can be said, have brought something unique to the activity, and, as has been mentioned in this thread, all have distinct and unique styles that have brought them legions of fans, as well as titles. After wathcing every finals since 1989 and after wracking my brain, I can't think of one truly original thing the Bluecoats have ever done, can't think of one unique element they have brought to this activity. In this respect they lag behind corps they are routinely beating such as Crown and the Blue Knights. Many people, myself included, simply find the Bluecoats uninspiring and unoriginal. This must change, IMOH, if they are to progress to a title. Again, does the staff have the talent and creativity to do this? I guess it remains to be seen.

[GGarrett]

I hope I didn't repeat myself much. I just woke up, and have written on here....twice, I think, since getting home. Hopefully I'm not too rusty. :)

yo...sup Jared? Welcome back. Nice friggin job this year dude... I shoulda said hi on Saturday... but you were ..uhhh... busy.

G

[JAZZER]

Jared-good post! Many other fine viewpoints weighing the merits of show design, staff, performer talent base, expectations, identity et.al.

I, too have devoted numerous hours observing rehearsals, interaction of staff with performers and monitoring the corps' rise in finals.

I respectfully disagree with the previous poster's description that the identity/impression/moniker of the corps is competent-I simply must give more credit, not only to this corps, but all. I think excellence fits better.

So, my vote. Yes, I know competitive arenas beg for predictions [da bears WILL win the division again]. But as much as it seems to be skirting the topic, I am uncomfortable in the arts attempting to predict outcomes.

IOW-I can easily accept if "MY" corps [whomever that might be] places anywhere from year to year as long as I feel that the product IS excellence, and most importantly the approach of the organization is educationally and emotionally well-grounded.

Because the Bluecoats as an organization, imho have consistently embraced this ethic their presence is now among the highest come finals. I think they have remained true and genuine and are reaping benefits.

Every year in DCI there are several "Gold" level finales. Thank goodness for that.

[Jared_mello]

yo...sup Jared? Welcome back. Nice friggin job this year dude... I shoulda said hi on Saturday... but you were ..uhhh... busy.

G

Thanks a lot, and glad you liked rehearsal. The etiquette and general positive and encouraging attitude is one that's pretty much there all throughout the season. I saw a bunch of people with Madison Alumni jackets on (it also seemed like there were a few people rehearsing on the other side of the school, during the early part of the week), so maybe you were one of them.

Oh, and in response to the people saying that the Bluecoats aren't "bringing anything new to the activity" and are uninspiring or unoriginal....even if that's true, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. The majority of shows in modern drum corps aren't doing anything to revolutionize DCI, and that's even the case at the top of the activity. There's something to be said about doing something right and doing it well. If that's not enough for you, I would at least suggest that the elastic feature this year was pretty innovative, as was the usage of tabla (and many other drumming instruments and textures that had never been used in drum corps before) in 2005. I would disagree with your usage of uninspiring, because I've definitely felt inspired before by corps that weren't necessary doing anything "new" in their shows. I suppose that's relative, though.

To summarize my sentiments, I would basically say that everything done so far, has been done effectively, right, and probably with the ideal pacing over time. The rise to 4th since 2000 has been executed perfectly, and it's visible why other corps (with the Glassmen being the closest thing to an exception) failed to advance above 5th. Being able to learn from the mistakes of others is one of the most valuable qualities you can have on the path to greatness, and the Bluecoats have demonstrated this with their success. I agree, however, with the people saying that this is the time where a visible change must be made for the rise to continue. I too hope that the staff and members can exemplify more than "competance" in 2007 (for those of you who don't feel like anything more has been shown yet)....and trust me when I say that changes will be evident in the 2007 Bluecoats. I'm not going to say anything about placements or anything, but change is something I can promise.

[Steve709]

That was my favorite one, too. I agree about the uniforms though; while professional looking and "neat," the fit isn't one that is condusive to top placements in visual captions, and this hasn't been the case since the early 90's. It's gotten better over the years, but the fitting and overall design of the uniforms still isn't as crisp or clean looking as a corps like the Blue Devils.

They were better than corps like BK and Crown in guard for most of the season, but unfortunate judging draws for big shows doesn't really help in showcasing a strong final result. APPARENTLY the wind randomly picked up finals night during their run, and wasn't really a problem or factor in anyone else's show, as well? Not sure if that's true, but I did hear it from people on and off the field that night.

Agreed. I feel the concept was there (from the standpoint of innovativeness and "forward thinking" when compared to the upper echelon of DCI), but the depiction of the concept wasn't as challenging as the corps above them.

It's a testament to the organization and staff, and surely a huge reason explaining why the corps currently is where it is within DCI, that the Bluecoats haven't really had a show that was "over their heads" since this whole momentous climb towards 4th has been going on. Actually, that may not have ever been the case, since the corps made it into finals in 1987. The shows seem to always be a little above where the talent level is, so that the kids push themselves to acheive whatever the difficulty is, and generally succeed in getting to the point where the show they're performing places as high as it's capable of placing. The fact that the corps always has an incredible last week or two before finals, and a previously unprecedented finals show, also plays into the gradual rise in placement. In the past though, I wouldn't say that the corps has "played it safe," more so that they played it "smart" instead. The slow, methodical rise in the top 12 has been something coordinated over a long period of time, and has entailed exactly what the staff has intended it to. I suppose in the context of this discussion, you could say the corps is playing it safe, because they're not pulling a Boston 2001 and trying to shoot for a title after the first year the corps shows the capability of competiting at the highest level of DCI. Within the context of the intentions of the Bluecoats though, I guess the corps isn't really playing it safe, they're just doing exactly what it takes to move up a spot or two every season.

I guess that time is coming soon though, where risks will need to be taken to keep getting better. Beating the corps that are above the Bluecoats right now is something that hasn't been done by an "outsider" in decades, and I'm not too sure if they can be beaten with a program written to be a little higher than the talent level. Nothing against the talent level, because I think it's just as high as any corps above them, I'm more so talking about the show being relative to that. I think that the top three corps write their shows to be more difficult relative to the talent level than the Bluecoats do, and that probably simply comes from the fact that those three corps are writing shows every year to compete for a title. Like I was saying before, the time is coming soon where the Bluecoats SHOULD be trying to compete for a title, and if that's going to be the case, then this advancement in challenge (technically, intellectually, emotionally, etc.) has to be the case. It's not worth criticism in the past, because again...GETTING to 4th was the carefully crafted, methodical aspect of it. Nowadays in drum corps, you rarely see shows in the top three that come across like they're written to come in third or second...it's usually shows that aren't performed as cleanly as the first place corps, and therefore wind up a point or two below them. It's pretty evident that BD's show this year wasn't written for 3rd, it was a first place show that just wound up there because of either execution, or the luck of two other corps simply being better on Saturday night. Back on topic about the Bluecoats, breaking into the top 3, the new challenge, is the part where the corps is going to need to get out of their comfort zone, write a title-contending show (both visually and musically; much can be done in both aspects), and hope (/insist) that the members realize what they're capable of. I personally feel that it's time that both the staff and the members need to make the expectation and goal, to be the best drum corps in the activity.

I hope I didn't repeat myself much. I just woke up, and have written on here....twice, I think, since getting home. Hopefully I'm not too rusty. :)

Wow Jared, I don't think I could agree more, well maybe I could. We'll talk about things before november camp. "....Welcome to drum corps"

[gellio]

Is there a corps since the inception of DCI that has made top 4 and not gone on to win a title at some point? I know there have been plenty of 5th place corps like that, but not sure about 4th place corps.

Duh, forgot about 27th. They sinished 4th 3 times. Forgot. Anybody else?

Blue Stars - 2nd in 1972

Troopers - 2nd in 1974

Bridgement - 3rd in 1980

27th - 2nd in 1980

Spirit of Altanta - 4th in 1979 & 1980

Let's not forget Phantom still has yet to win a solo title and they been in the top 2, 3 and 4 numerous times. #### Madison's only made the top 3 three times since bursting into finals at 4th place in 1973. It is extremely difficult to win a title in this activity.

[monoemono]

Come up with some adjectives to describe the Bluecoats persona, what sort of words you'd use to describe the corps as if they were a star performer. What type of music do they play?

Jazz, mostly. Often more so than that other, more decorated "Jazz" corps (at least from that group's recent offerings).

What kind of emotions are they looking to create in the audience?

Fun.

Most importantly, what do they bring to the table that no other corps does better?

Nothing, yet. Which is why they haven't won, yet.

Most of the top corps/past champions have something that makes them unique. An approach or a style or an attitude that reads very clearly.

Yes, and I think this group is still shaking out what that is for them. It is easy to be the "Jazz" corps when you're the only one at the top doing it (BD). It is easy to be the "Classical" corps when you're the only one at the top doing it (PR). Notice how these identities are formed from the music. Other corps do it differently, but some corps do it fromm the music first. Now, Bluecoats' identity has always come from the music, which is why they've always been seen as kind of the poor man's BD. But what do they do,then? Completely switch up? Abandon the Jazz thing completely? That won't work. So do they try to go all in-your-face like BD or old-school Madison? Then they would just be compared on the merits of how well they do that compared with so-and-so. I think their show this year is on its way to something. A little bit lighter, very proficient musically, visually pleasing (this may be where they are the least unique--but it's coming). They will have to come up with more "amazing" moments to win, of course, but so does everybody. I have to say that even putting my insider bias aside, I really like the brand of drum corps they put on the field this year.

At this point, the word that comes to mind for me when I think of Bluecoats is "competent." That's not bad, but it's not enough to base an entire drum corps' program around.

I think they were a whole lot better than competent this year. But you're right--just being really good won't cut it. They have to be amazing.

One thing I think is missing here is the idea that the staff knows exactly what it's doing and is trying to build next year's successess off of this one. Does anyone doubt that this corps will not try a MUCH more demanding program next year? This year's show wasn't written to win. They definitely were not writing to win when I marched. But next season I expect to see a 1st place difficulty show on the field from Canton. Does that mean they'll win? Not necessarily. But I think next season will be the first where a Bluecoats staff gives the corps a show that is capable of winning.

[monoemono]

He wasn't using BOA as the typical insult that its normally used as in drum corps circles. He's just saying in a rather unconventional way that they're at a very high level of competition. Nothing wrong with that.

Dude, don't try to tell me what I read. He said he thinks the show is BOA, and as an EXACT quote, that "Their problem is that they look like John Doe High School Marching Band".

If you can spin that into a complement, then you're trying to. I'll take it for what it actually says.

I'm old enough to remember when calling someone's corps a band would be the quickest way to a fistfight.