1972

[johnnytata]

I'm still amazed 1972 DCA is still going so strong. I know this is going to get me in trouble AGAIN, but why change now. DCA this year was the only show was able to go to and it is MY opinion not one show I saw was even close to entertaining the crowd , or as some of us would say a "GOOSE BUMP MOMENT", as we did in 1972. They march faster, a more didficult Drill, more difficult music for both Horns and Percussion, and I'm sure Colorguard to, but did I don't beleive harder is better, well not in Drum Corps anyway. I'm not just saying the top 4 or 5 I'm saying all top 10. Okay blast me if you want but how many of those moments did you feel? Also I apoligize for not following through on that 1972 party at my place but not one but two serious injuries to members of my family forced me to back off for a while. Okay let it rip!

[donincardona]

I'm still amazed 1972 DCA is still going so strong. I know this is going to get me in trouble AGAIN, but why change now. DCA this year was the only show was able to go to and it is MY opinion not one show I saw was even close to entertaining the crowd , or as some of us would say a "GOOSE BUMP MOMENT", as we did in 1972. They march faster, a more didficult Drill, more difficult music for both Horns and Percussion, and I'm sure Colorguard to, but did I don't beleive harder is better, well not in Drum Corps anyway. I'm not just saying the top 4 or 5 I'm saying all top 10. Okay blast me if you want but how many of those moments did you feel? Also I apoligize for not following through on that 1972 party at my place but not one but two serious injuries to members of my family forced me to back off for a while. Okay let it rip!

first of all i agree with you about the goose bumps. i agree about the difficulty. but john i know you. we hung together and i knew you wouldn't have the party. i knew there would be a reason why. i don't care but please.......don't make excuses. now i like the past to but let's not live in it. it's 2007. 72 was a very good year. but lets move on. say hi to kevin & shel. peace bro

[fish66]

I'm still amazed 1972 DCA is still going so strong. I know this is going to get me in trouble AGAIN, but why change now. DCA this year was the only show was able to go to and it is MY opinion not one show I saw was even close to entertaining the crowd , or as some of us would say a "GOOSE BUMP MOMENT", as we did in 1972. They march faster, a more didficult Drill, more difficult music for both Horns and Percussion, and I'm sure Colorguard to, but did I don't beleive harder is better, well not in Drum Corps anyway. I'm not just saying the top 4 or 5 I'm saying all top 10. Okay blast me if you want but how many of those moments did you feel? Also I apoligize for not following through on that 1972 party at my place but not one but two serious injuries to members of my family forced me to back off for a while. Okay let it rip!

1972 still stirs the competitive juices and combative attidudes of all involved. just read this entire thread! but don't think for a minute that in 35 yrs todays dca'ers won't fondly look back and rehash their cherished memories!!!

[donincardona]

1972 still stirs the competitive juices and combative attidudes of all involved. just read this entire thread! but don't think for a minute that in 35 yrs todays dca'ers won't fondly look back and rehash their cherished memories!!!

i totally agree with you. some people are so stuck in the past. i admit i get riled when i think about 72 but i don't live there. the new breed will be just like us..........they just don't know it yet B)

[NYSkyliner]

Now that I have found a few moments to respond to this missive, here goes. Your post

1) reaffirms Dave's statement that QUOTE(DaveDrum @ Aug 24 2007, 09:38 AM)

In 1972 we went to Chicago for the American Legion Nationals and an exhibition at the first DCI Championship. We knew the show had problems so we took the 8 days together to change some of the drill and music.

2) Refutes Steve's comments that there were NO changes.

I just found this thread a few days ago, and I LOVE it! First, it is a year old!! Amazing for DCP threads. Started in Sept 2006? Next, I was there with Cabs in 1972. Tuthill was caption head and arranger, and Jack Pratt and I were Asst. Instructors. I also played in the line on snare, while Jack didn't.

As a staff member of Caballeros, and a snare drummer in the line, I would clearly remember, in my many meetings/discussions with George and Jack, if we significantly watered down the parts, as my friend Mike Siglow alleges.

Could you please show the quote where I say the you "significantly watered down your book"?

(Mikey, Mikey, Mikey.)

And please reserve you smart-alecky remarks for you students? Thank you. <**>

Please know that we didn't. Yes, we revised some of the parts; everyone with half a brain does so.

Are you saying that Steve has less then half a brain? B)

But we did NOT take out the giant eraser, as Mikey alleges.

Again, could you please show the quote where I say that you "significantly watered down your book"? "Revising" the book amounts to changes that would make it more conducive to presenting your drumline in a more favorable light thus enhancing your chances of getting a higher score. Nothing more and nothing less. In order to do that the revisions that you made placed less demand on you drumline, thus "watering down your book" to "whatever" degree.

I've known Mike Siglow since the late 60s. My dad was the drum instructor in Mike's first drum corps (Madonna, from Fort Lee, check his signature).

And two of your uncles were involved with Madonna as well. Your cousin Ray's father was our drill instructor for awhile as I remember. And one of your best friend's from St. Pat's in Jersey City, one John Iglesias, was my drum instructor in Madonna for a period in time as well.

He and I later did undergraduate studies together in the late 70s. When we'd go the the Rathskeller together on campus for a Diet Pepsi, we agreed to NOT talk about the 72 DCA championships. :)

Not true. I NEVER drank Diet Pepsi during my entire college/university career in the "Rat". :) And keep in mind that you and Davis graduated from a college while I, on the other hand received my degree from a University. b**bs :) B)

Great memories!!! Thanks to all of you who posted for bringing back such great memories.

PS In addition to Art Bouvier and Al "Nipples", please know, MikeD, that we also had the reknowned David Tintle, ex-Cadet and current NJ band director, in our drum line that year.

[/size]

TA-TA Jamesey!!!! (Or is that Jamesie?)

Edited September 10, 2007 by NYSkyliner

[cabalumsw]

In 1972 we went to Chicago for the American Legion Nationals and an exhibition at the first DCI Championship. We knew the show had problems so we took the 8 days together to change some of the drill and music.

2) Refutes Steve's comments that there were NO changes. [/color]

Could you please show the quote where I say the you "significantly watered down your book"?

Mike:

The first time I encountered you and a debate on 1972 was in RAMD a few years back even before there was DCP. I don't even know if you remember but you specifically told me that we watered our parts down in Chicago. Whether it was a post or a private email, you did say that and I took exception to it.

Changes are different than watering parts down. We did make changes in 1972 and fact we made changes to our show the entire year. We were playing Siboney for concert and changed it to Russian Sabre Dance later in the season. You also told me that in 1973 and 1974 we were really not that good but just that everyone else sucked more. You also chastised me for being oblivious to the politics of drum corpa and told me I was probably a young punk marching in a parade corps in 1966 when Skyliners got screwed at the Nationals. You were correct because I was a 14 year old punk in 1966 marching in a parade corps. LOL!

Edited September 11, 2007 by cabalumsw

[cabalumsw]

Below is an excerpt of a thread on RAMD titled "Shades of 1972". This was a reply from Mike Siglow to some of my comments on the thread I had started. He erred in his location referral to Cleveland. If you want to read the whole thing, do a search on the topic. It was a lively debate I have to say! Mike, do you remember this? It was from 2003. One thing I do have is a good memory!

Hey Mike:

I was sure that we would be hearing from you!

****Just keeping everyone better informed about what really took place

that year.

In 72 it was the tortoise and the hare. In New Brunswick that year,we

were working our ##### in the hottest of days while you guys were

drinking beer and laughing at us.

****I was doing no such thing Steve.

But we caught you in the end, didn't we

****It was more the trip to Cleveland where you watered down your drum

parts, remember Steve? Or did that conveniently slip your mind? All

year you were getting high GE drum marks but your book was over your

collective heads and you were losing in execution drums big time. So

rather then getting beat so badly in execution you watered down your

drum parts. Bennett couldn't tell the difference, gave you the same GE

drum score you had been getting throughout the season and because you

were playing a really watered down book your execution mark went up as

well. Did you deserve that win in Schenectady? No. Did you deserve to

win DCA that year? Guess we'll never really know due to all the

judging politics that took place that night. But I promised Tom P. I'd

not devulge any of the particulars. Suffice to say that the point

penalty for undertime was a "screw job" as well. Where did 25 to 30

seconds from the show go Steve? Guess it's very similar to the 6

minutes that the Field drum judge spent in the Brigs pit a couple of

weeks ago in Providence that gave them the win huh.

and we kept on running in 73 and 74.

****You guys weren't all that good in 73 and 74. It was that everyone

else sucked those years and you guys didn't suck as bad as they did.

[NYSkyliner]

This is the point Steve. Jim's statement:

"Yes, we revised some of the parts; everyone with half a brain does so."

does two (2) things.

1) reaffirms Dave's statement that QUOTE(DaveDrum @ Aug 24 2007, 09:38 AM)

"In 1972 we went to Chicago for the American Legion Nationals and an exhibition at the first DCI Championship. We knew the show had problems so we took the 8 days together to change some of the drill and music."

2) Refutes YOUR comments that there were NO changes.

QUOTE cabalumsw Oct 4 2006, 12:51 PM

"Jeff: I marched with Cabs, was in Chicago, was in the drum line and there were no watered down parts."

QUOTE cabalumsw Oct 1 2006, 06:45 PM

"There was no watering down of the book or staff changes."

QUOTE cabalumsw Sep 23 2006, 08:56 PM

"I happened to be with the Cabs drum line the entire year and the drum book was never watered down."

"Revising" the book amounts to changes that would make it more conducive to presenting your drumline in a more favorable light thus enhancing your chances of getting a higher score. Nothing more and nothing less. In order to do that the revisions that you made placed less demand on you drumline, thus "watering down your book" to "whatever" degree.

The rest of your posts are nonsequitur. Your attempts to continue to insist that there were no changes (that you remember) has been proved incorrect by 2 members of the drumline that year and one states that he was an instructor of that drumline. Just give it up Steve. You were mistaken in your claims, pure and simple. Just like "Texas Hold 'em", you went "All In" and lost all your chips. Games over, you lost, leave the table, move on. Any further comment on the issue by you I will view as a "Good-Bye", nothing more.

Edited September 11, 2007 by NYSkyliner

[MikeD]

Could you please show the quote where I say the you "significantly watered down your book"?

This quote from you at least implies that, IMO....and I guess Jim's as well....

It was during their Chicago tour that the Cabs watered down their drum show. During the entire year their drum book was a VERY difficult one and they didn't have the horses the execute such a demanding book. As well, all year long they were receiving top GE drum marks which such a demanding drum book could very well call for and if it were executed properly they would have been receiving top overall drum marks all year and finishing higher in the standings all year long. When they got to Schenectady and performed with their watered down drum book their execution drum mark was raised substantially but with the watered down drum book their GE drum mark should have gone down as their "new" drum book didn't deserve the same GE marks that it had been getting earlier that year. All that the GE drum judge knew is that they had been getting high GE drum marks all year long and gave them the same GE marks for the Schenectady show. Thus is how the (once again) drum judging was crucial in the defeat of a GREAT Skyliner Drum Corps. The watering down of a show is a tactic that has been used for decades. If you write a book that is above the heads of the talent you have and you want to win, you've got to do something that will be in your best interest to win, and that is what occurred.

BTW...why would simplifying a book, even if that was done, automatically lower their GE score? It might have been more musical and fit the show better, and if better performed the arranger's original ideas could come across better as well.

Demand does not equate to GE in and of itself. Never has.

Oh, and I have a degree from a University too....Seton Hall. :P

[ech2os]

i totally agree with you. some people are so stuck in the past. i admit i get riled when i think about 72 but i don't live there. the new breed will be just like us..........they just don't know it yet B)

In general, I have noticed that people or people who pull for teams, corps, or groups that accomplished something in the past tend to dwell on those accomplishments and that makes sense. I don't hear many Falcons fans talking about the 1966 3-11 Norb Hecker Coached team, but they will talk about the 1998 14-2 Dan Reeves team that went to the Super Bowl.