How would past champions compare...

[Hrothgar15]

Honestly, I don't see a difference. A show that was in the top 5 in 1987 would be in the top five in 2007.

[greggmanX-Kingsmen]

Personally, after watching a couple of performances from the 72-74 time frame, I think the champs of those years would be killed on today's sheets. I could see them maybe squeezing into semis. JMHO.

Well it is JMHO too, but after watching modern drum corps the past couple years champs today would be KILLED on yesterdays' sheets using the tic system. However, I wouldn't go as far to say champs today wouldn't make finals.

[Bones758]

agreed

[Lance]

Star '91 would be hard to beat even in 2006...

I think it might have placed as high as 5th in 06, and I love the show. I'd only put it that high because musically, it was ahead of its time. I agree with you about Cadets and Star 93, though.

[noneofyourbusiness]

Personally, after watching a couple of performances from the 72-74 time frame, I think the champs of those years would be killed on today's sheets. I could see them maybe squeezing into semis. JMHO.

Well it is JMHO too, but after watching modern drum corps the past couple years champs today would be KILLED on yesterdays' sheets using the tic system. However, I wouldn't go as far to say champs today wouldn't make finals.

I agree with your assessment. That's why I stated in the opening of my post that it was comparing apples and oranges. Today's shows are written for a specific set of criteria, which is completely different from those that were used in 1972. Corps like Anaheim, Blue Stars, SCV, 27th were clean to the extreme in the visual caption. BUT, after watching a couple of old movies from those corps' shows at Whitewater and then the 2006 DVDs, it was shocking to realize how basic the drill designs were compared to today. A corps like Mandarin marched more steps in the first two minutes of their show last year than 27th did in their whole show in 1972. So, the older corps focused mostly on cleaning the basic maneuvers they performed as much as possible (remember the old term M&M?), while today's are more focused on maximizing the difficulty and variance of design (i.e. Visual).

[Phantom&Phitch]

I think the context of things like GE has change so drastically from then to now that corps juist wouldnt stack up to the modern era expectations.

there are some moments i feel would still be highly competative in todays world:

Cadets 97 hornbook

Cadets 87 dissolving comp. front

Stars 91 hornbook

BD 99s Guard

Cadets 96 guard

and some more

[PR_ducky]

I think pretty much any of the top shows (top 3-5) all the way back to 87 would do just fine today.

Things have just not changed that much since then.

Drill design today just isn't that much advanced from the late 80s.

Obviously anything from the Tic era would get slaughtered, but then again most shows now would not do well under the tic system. The two judging systems are just too different for comparison.

[jake_the_hydra]

I think pretty much any of the top shows (top 3-5) all the way back to 87 would do just fine today.

Things have just not changed that much since then.

Drill design today just isn't that much advanced from the late 80s.

I disagree strongly . . . I don't see how anyone can watch, say, the top two corps from 1987-93 and the top two corps from 2000-2006 and not see how much more advanced drill design is today.

Also, the standard set for brass in this activity (in my opinion) is signicantly higher than what it was in the 80's and 90's.

I think that some of the best shows from the 80's and early-mid 90's would certainly have a shot at top 6 or even top 3 in some cases, but I think they would fall short of what's happening today.

[jwillis35]

I disagree strongly . . . I don't see how anyone can watch, say, the top two corps from 1987-93 and the top two corps from 2000-2006 and not see how much more advanced drill design is today.

Also, the standard set for brass in this activity (in my opinion) is signicantly higher than what it was in the 80's and 90's.

I think that some of the best shows from the 80's and early-mid 90's would certainly have a shot at top 6 or even top 3 in some cases, but I think they would fall short of what's happening today.

Jake is right, but everyone has some nice points.

This subject comes up from time to time, and there are no easy answers. We do it in sports too. We first have to consider that the changes in visual styles, musical arrangements, judging, instruction, show emphasis, quality of instruments (and I loved the G bugles, but they presented limitations to the peformers), and many other factors when we begin to compare bygone eras to modern drum corps.

Corps from the mid 80s and back often performed a stand-still piece (concert number) that today would be frowned upon. The very corps that helped to erase that bit of history (Garfield in 84) tried to bring it back in 1995 and was often rediculed for not moving more. The emphasis in the judging sheets today would not favor the older visual design, and to some extent the older style of musical arranging. Remember that today the brass and percussion arrangements are more integrated with the visual design than they were in the 70s or 80s. Overall GE would hurt an 80s corps vs. a 21st century corps. The type of brass sound that is desired today (although this should never be judged from a generic standpoint) would be favored over a 60s, 70s, and 80s corps.

Every facet of the competition from brass to drums, from guard to visual would be vastly different, and those aspects of a show that were highly sought after in one era would not translate to the next era from a competitive standpoint, even if we still find the older shows entertaining (and I am assuming that we all do).

For many of us who personally watched and listened to drum corps in the 70s and 80s, as I did, we have great respect for the ability of those older horn lines. They had to play on imperfect bugles, and most corps did not have bugles that were in the best of condition. Garfield's brass was an absolute mess in the 80s. You wouldn't sell those horns to your worst enemy. The Bridgemen had some of the ugliest bugles I have seen. I was just stunned they could even play them let alone do the amazing things they did. Corps in those days were not getting new drums and brass every year or eveery other year, and they were not buying new guard equipment all the time.

How does one judge the pioneering efforts of a guard like that of the 27th Lancers to the pioneering efforts of the Blue Devils guard in the late 90s? One leads to the other. The activity will always be in debt to the pioneering efforts of a corps like the Troopers in 1970, SCV in 1973 and 74, Madison in 75, 27th Lancers in 79 and 80, Garfield in visual and music in the 80s, Blue Devils in jazz and latin music from 76 to 86, the Cavaliers and the geometric designs of Steve Brubaker, SCV and their theatrical-based themes, and Star in the early 90s redefining the role of brass and percussion (and body movement); without these pioneering efforts there is no modern-day Cavaliers of 2002 or Cadets of 2005. There is no BD of 2003 or Phantom Regiment of 2006. One leads to the other, so to compare is difficult. As long as we understand the power of time, assessment of the past, evolution, and how all these corps have taken the best of the past to create the future.

Having said all that, there are some exceptions where time stands still. I have yet to hear a 21st century brass line that could beat the Blue Devils 1988 or Star 1992, maybe even 1991 Star. I have yet to see that one show that gives me the goose-bump GE rush like 87 Garfield did, and there is a show that could still be top 5 today. Star 93 would have been top 2 at this past year's finals. Blue Devils 1988 would get slammed in visual GE and demand, but they would likely clean house in music performance and visual ex, and they would be right in the mix in percussion. Clearly GE and Guard would also hurt them. Cadets 93 would not win today, but then again many of us thought they should have been 2nd in 93; however, they would clearly be top 5 today. They were a bit dirty on finals night, but you would be hard pressed to name any 3rd, 4th, or 5th place show from the past 10 years that could topple them. My bet is that they would have been 3rd this past year.

So, yes, some old shows can compete, but in general the criteria is different today and the visual end of things is really the biggest difference. I can find all kinds of great brass from the 70s and 80s that could compete today, but the visual demands today are definitely harder. I am not so sure that is always a good thing, but I guess we'll see where it goes from here.

JW

Edited March 21, 2007 by jwillis35

[2000Cadet]

Wow, I have always wondered about this topic. I have not watched a lot of shows pre-1992 so I really don't know much about the shows except for The Cadets. But I have always wondered how shows back then would compare to modern day. This is all very insightful. Keep it going.....