John Williams and The Cadets

[luvs me sum mello!]

Haha...yes my favorite. Complain about something on a message board, years after the fact where noone can do anything about it, but somehow brag about how mature you were.

Classic DCP

[silvertrombone]

I just need to point out that, in the Superman movie, there is a direct lift. Part of the melody in "Can You Read My Mind" is lifted straight out of Richard Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration" (Tod und Verklarung.)

Yeah, but then you can go talking about the Beatles and Mozart, and Andrew Lloyd Weber (surprised his name hasn't been mentioned yet!) and Bach.

All these posts and not one person has answered the original question? It's quite simple, actually:

Long ago, in an attempt to boost his fledgling career, John Williams made a deal with the devil.

As has been established on DCP over the past 3 years, George Hopkins is the devil.

There you go.

:P

Ha-ha! Needed a good laugh.

My opinion only:

John Williams is a hack, although a memorable hack. However, the permissions thing is bogus, in my opinion. He seems really stuck on himself now that he has gotten older. Makes me sad, as I have enjoyed his work so much in the past. My opinion is that he should open himself to more arrangers. But on the other hand.....it is his music and he can do with it what he likes.

<break>

As far as stealing music, is there really ANYTHING that is actually original out there??? Everyone is influenced by someone and absorbs their music into their own....

Glad you inserted the 'my opinion' part. Williams is an incredible composer, as I have mentioned before. A lot of his stuff is very Mozart-ish. For those who remember music theory and history, Mozart liked to remind musicians of his day that he was better than they were, both as a composer and as a performer. If you haven't seen "Amadeus," go see it. Entertaining if not completely, historically inaccurate.

We take duple vs. triple meter stuff today as pretty elementary since we're used to stuff like syncopation and space chords. But in the classical era, it was something more difficult. Sort of the 'syncopation' of the day. Many musicians were simply left in the dust and could not play Mozart's stuff.

Not that performers cannot play Williams' music today, but his has a lot of the same qualities. Don't mistake me, I don't list the two in the same class as talent or composer, but Williams can hold his own. And I don't just say that to defend very familiar melodies of his, which is not my point.

A couple of specific examples from Williams music that I have performed:

1.) Raiders March--the opening contains three distinct rythmic figures that each repeat. The 1/16th notes must be double/triple-tongued and each figure, if memory serves me right, do not repeat, mixing in order between the three. Not easy. Add in the fact that it is somewhat soft and it makes it difficult to play in a larger ensemble.

2.) Superman--the original score contains some very difficult material--some VERY musical moments, too. 'Superfeats,' the music playing while Superman fights the tornado in Colombia (or wherever), and does the other miraculous things, is flat-out difficult. Not as much so in a symphony setting as in the wind symphony setting where trombones are frequently covering clarinet parts (so they can cover violins) and in other times, cellos. Makes for a more exciting concert than your typical concert band performance--more draining, too!

3.) Imperial (Vader) March--one of the most recognizable pieces ever performed--arguably MADE Darth Vader Darth Vader! The background lick with the triplets isn't so hard at the beginning, but when the exposed off-beat stuff kicks in, Holy Mary Mother of God!! REALLY fun piece! I'd put this up against just about anything Wagner ever wrote in terms of notes and volume for utter fun to play value!

4.) A lot of people don't know Williams' early career includes some pretty well-known material from the golden era of television, also. "Lost in Space," season 1/2 and season 3 (Hawaii 5-O sound-alike version).

5.) March from 1941--really raw sound! Fun to let your hair down and kind of re-create the sound of a WWII airfield bar fight! Same type of problems with the opening lick as with Raiders March, except that nobody is familiar with this music and at least everybody has heard Raiders.

Not completely original, but who is? Even Schubert's (or was it Schumann--been a while) 1st Symphony was dubbed Beethoven's 10th (meant as a compliment) due to it being so stylistically similar, though different themes, notes, etc, to the Master.

Lots of good stuff from Williams, who sometimes gets a bad rap amongst musicians b/c his music is so popular!

[JayM]

4.) A lot of people don't know Williams' early career includes some pretty well-known material from the golden era of television, also. "Lost in Space," season 1/2 and season 3 (Hawaii 5-O sound-alike version).

So how did Bruce Broughton end up writing the movie score to Lost in Space?

[The Tsar]

I do have a problem with music that is written to sound "almost" like a composers song but a few notes are changed, or like you say verbatim rip off's.

I'm finding it hard to think of actual examples at the moment. My concentration at the moment is shot.

Ooh, I just thought of one that irked me for years.

Any of you ever see the old NBC miniseries called "V" and "V: The Final Battle?" I'm not talking about the actual series that later came about, but rather then mini-series, which were basically a set of five TV movies.

The "love" theme used in -I think- the second movie, was Gustav Holst's "First Suite in Eb, Mvmt I" (the Chaconne) EXCEPT that at the very end of the theme, instead of resolving upwards by a perfect 4th, he resolved it upward a major second.

When I first saw these movies I was still a couple of years from playing the Holst suites...it wasn't until after I bought the DVDs in a fit of nostalgia and watched them all....I almost had a spasm when I heard the "love theme."

Another good (bad?) example is the Joel McNeely's soundtrack to "Shadows of the Empire" (a book by Steve Perry). He snags some lovely melodies from Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet" near the beginning, but then commits the unthinkable crime: Rips off Walton's "Belshazzar's Feast" almost note-for-note at the end. I was digging on the soundtrack until that moment. Haven't listened to it in years.

[Triple Forte]

Yet you were mature enough to call your "big boy" actions to everyone's attention.

kudos

Oh DCP..........

I was responding to your comment........duh....... How foolish of me.......

[The Tsar]

Speaking of Cadillacs of the Sky...

http://tinyurl.com/3y2gp3

Recognize the young boy? Look a little....batty to you? :)

[84BDsop]

As of Wednesday, officially. That is when I will defend.

So.....how'd it go? are you officially Dr. Tsar Nikk now??

[JayM]

The "love" theme used in -I think- the second movie, was Gustav Holst's "First Suite in Eb, Mvmt I" (the Chaconne) EXCEPT that at the very end of the theme, instead of resolving upwards by a perfect 4th, he resolved it upward a major second.

Ending on the major 3rd makes it sound really boring.

[The Tsar]

So.....how'd it go? are you officially Dr. Tsar Nikk now??

Yup.

You can call me Doc Tsar. :P

[stylites]

Glad you inserted the 'my opinion' part. Williams is an incredible composer, as I have mentioned before. A lot of his stuff is very Mozart-ish. For those who remember music theory and history, Mozart liked to remind musicians of his day that he was better than they were, both as a composer and as a performer. If you haven't seen "Amadeus," go see it. Entertaining if not completely, historically inaccurate.

<**> I can't believe you equated Williams with Mozart!!!

On one hand, Mozart is arguably one of the greatest musical geniuses who ever lived. Williams is a commercial composer whose work is almost entirely derivitive from others (although he himself has admitted to doing this in order to get people more interested in symphonic music).

Over the years I have performed MANY Williams selections (incidentally, I have NO idea what you are talking about having to triple tongue the Raiders march. It is fine single tonguing. ) I find it incredibly generic to perform as well as redundant to hear, especially when he simply inverts melodies from movie to movie.

He has a bad rap among a lot of professional musicians not because his music is popular, but because he really doesn't deserve the credit that his worshippers give him.

Again, my opinion (and I realize that a lot of people are emotionally tied to defending him). Williams can be enjoyable, but I think he gets WAY too much credit (and money) for the stuff he produces.

btw...congrats Nick....! :)