euponitone Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 It all depends on who filed the patent first. B) I think Berlioz wins by a few hundred years :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stylites Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I think Berlioz wins by a few hundred years :P Only 200 years before me. Guarantees he won't show in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKCanosUSMCContra Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) The real reason why movie soundtrack composers have to deal with accusations of theft (and why they borrow in the first place) is twofold.Firstly, the very first Hollywood composers were contemporaries of some of the great names in the music world. Guys like Franz Waxman and Miklos Rosza have a distinctive sound (sound like Mahler) because they were from the same "school" (so to speak). A lot of people I know say (disdainfully) that "movie music sounds like Mahler." In actuality...Mahler sounds like movie music because they were born out of the same romantic style. Secondly...composers are usually given a "temp score" by the director. This score basically gives the film composer an idea of what the director wants in that section. I would not be surprised at all if Lucas gave Williams a temp score that included "Mars," as well as Purcell, Elgar, De Falla, Ravel, etc. The soundtrack to the film 2001 was supposed to be scored by Alex North. I say supposed because Kubrick decided to tank his soundtrack and used the temp score instead (which is why you will hear music by Strauss (Richard and Johann), Ligetti, Khachaturian, etc in the soundtrack. Another good example is the ending to Ridley Scott's "Alien." Most of the music was done by Jerry Goldsmith, but the ending credits is the Hanson Symphony No. 2. I get what you're saying when you write "IMO stealing music is stealing music whether it's verbatim or something that suggests it." I don't agree with you, but it's your opinion, and I won't argue it (though Stravinsky would probably challenge you to a fight, heh). If you hold this ideal close to your heart, then let me give you a bit of advice: Don't go digging too deep for the sources of inspiration for your favourite composers. You will find that many composers, perhaps even the majority, have borrowed source material. Or, to put it in your terms, they've committed musical theft. Heck, even Mozart has been accused of plagiarizing. I don't have a problem with the music of the masters influencing the music of film composers. I have a huge problem with blatant note-for-note ripoffs without giving credit, as Zimmer, Horner, and Tyler Bates do from time to time. Heck, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Bates This guy actually STOLE someone else's soundtrack in an already existing form! That is NOT the same (to me) as Darth Vader's march. Incidentally, Ligetti sued Kubrick for using his music in 2001 and won. Ok allow me to rephrase. There is music that is influenced by a composer. There is music that is a direct rip of a composer, like what you're mentioning. Finally there is music that sounds exactly like something, but are few notes a changed. I have no problem with music that is influenced by (a) composer(s). With out external influences one cannot grow, and new forms of musical expression cannot develop. I do have a problem with music that is written to sound "almost" like a composers song but a few notes are changed, or like you say verbatim rip off's. I'm finding it hard to think of actual examples at the moment. My concentration at the moment is shot. Edited June 11, 2007 by VKCanosUSMCContra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburstall Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Secondly...composers are usually given a "temp score" by the director. This score basically gives the film composer an idea of what the director wants in that section. I would not be surprised at all if Lucas gave Williams a temp score that included "Mars," as well as Purcell, Elgar, De Falla, Ravel, etc. I remember an interview that Williams did for a Star Trek documentary. He stated that he used the classical works as the backdrop to the scenes so he would have an idea what he would write for the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple Forte Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I've never heard the Cadets mention that Jay Bocook WROTE Cadillac of the Skies. I've heard them mention that he ARRANGED it, but not wrote it. And if people aren't bright enough to figure out the difference between an arrangement of an existing piece and an original composition, they get no sympathy from me. And the Cadets have nothing to apologize for.As far as the original post, they probably secured the rights to this music long ago (I think they started playing it around 1994 or 1995? Someone correct me if I'm wrong). What would be so bad about saying Cadillac of the Skies; written by John Williams, arranged by Jay Bocook Frank Sinatra always acknowledged the song "Writers" and arrangers......class act Overheard a longtime Cadets volunteer one time "We went to Disney World and watched the Epcot laser show and they were playing "our" music"...... <**> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raphael18 Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) Secondly...composers are usually given a "temp score" by the director. This score basically gives the film composer an idea of what the director wants in that section. I would not be surprised at all if Lucas gave Williams a temp score that included "Mars," as well as Purcell, Elgar, De Falla, Ravel, etc. Actually - this sounds like something I heard on the comentary of one of the DVDs. Lucas wasn't sure whether he was going to go with existing classical music or original - and he had pieces such as Mars set aside. Edit: because I never get things right the first time apparently. Edited June 12, 2007 by raphael18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Overheard a longtime Cadets volunteer one time "We went to Disney World and watched the Epcot laser show and they were playing "our" music"...... <**> Dude...its a volunteer. Noone is going to yell at them for being a little bit too 'in love' with their corps. Heck, youve got to idolize a corps to want to give up your time to do that. Please be a big boy and either politely explain it to them, or walk away. I do the same thing when someone calls corps band, or makes some other ignorant mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple Forte Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Dude...its a volunteer. Noone is going to yell at them for being a little bit too 'in love' with their corps. Heck, youve got to idolize a corps to want to give up your time to do that. Please be a big boy and either politely explain it to them, or walk away. I do the same thing when someone calls corps band, or makes some other ignorant mistake. I was a big boy.......and walked away...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvs me sum mello! Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I was a big boy.......and walked away...... Yet you were mature enough to call your "big boy" actions to everyone's attention. kudos Oh DCP.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Yet you were mature enough to call your "big boy" actions to everyone's attention.kudos Oh DCP.......... Haha...yes my favorite. Complain about something on a message board, years after the fact where noone can do anything about it, but somehow brag about how mature you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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