Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[Stu]

3 hours ago, Cappybara said:

He is being criticized (atleast by me) for baselessly connecting some "stagnation of the fanbase" with the design direction of DCI. It has nothing to do with the popularity of BD, which even I know was not a popular show. 

He still refuses to provide any numbers, he just points to the "local shows" and how they're no longer there, but fails to realize that it is IRRELEVANT to his point, and this is because the transition from the entertainment focused style to the "education" style that he is referring to occurred AFTER the local shows all went away. Therefore using these local shows as your basis for stagnating attendance and blaming it on the design direction of DCI is monkey business. 

There are so many confounding factors involved that he simply can't comprehend or just refuses to acknowledge. But that doesn't serve his narrative that the new drum corps that he hates so much is decreasing audience numbers, so I understand why it's easier for him to just ignore the fact. 

Cap: Your first two paragraphs here are acceptable; they engage in healthy debate.  Your last crosses into personal attack.  Be that as it may.

A) I have complimented design (as in the BD ’94 show design) and been critical of design (as in the 2012 BD show design).  And if you notice it is the ‘design’ which is the subject not ‘BD’.

  As a corps I have been completely complimentary of BD (noting loyal and great staff, high quality performers, and consistent high quality performance), and I will add here one of the best business models in DCI.  Again it is in show design and construction, not the corps itself that I am addressing concern.

B) I have stated that DCI and the corps need to be careful in that if they continue to treat the audience as ‘students’ in need of edification concerning the progression of the art form, as opposed to ‘fans’ that deserve to be entertained. And that they do risk losing audience attendance in the future if they continue down that path.  However…

C) Never did I equate design direction with cause/effect of ‘past’ audience numbers.  All I have pointed out are three facts, yes facts, and one conclusion based on reason. Fact #1 The recorded and verifiable audience numbers at the DCI major shows, with some fluctuation, has stayed pretty much the same since the inception of DCI; Fact #2 There are way less corps competing today than years ago, which is also verifiable, and thus it stands to reason less family/friends involved due to the fewer corps; and Fact #3 There are less local shows each week throughout the country now than years ago, yet another verifiable fact.  Conclusion: While there were/are no recorded numbers of people in attendance at local shows, if you combine all three facts, it stands to reason that while major show attendance has stagnated the ‘overall’ attendance has dwindled.  Again not based on show designs but based on those factors.

D) You attack me personally by stating that I either cannot comprehend (stupid) or I that I refuse to let truth sway my narrative (obtuse).  But if you go back and read my ‘narrative’, as you put it, my opinions are nothing as you describe.  It is actually a situation where 1) I do not like most post-Y2K show designs, whether BD or other, because they tend to treat the audience as students to be ‘edified’ as opposed to fans to be ‘entertained’; and 2) I do not like the chop-paste sound construction of many post-Y2K shows, whether BD or other, which contain little if any melodic structure and comprehensible musical phrasing, but it is now considered something to merely underpin the Visual.   I do contend that if the design teams continue down the path of ignoring the musical ‘entertainment’ of the fans they will run the risk of losing audience attendance; but I have only pointed out that attendance has dwindled in the past by referencing the demise of many corps and many local shows to indicate that it is possible to lose fans.

[MikeD]

11 hours ago, Stu said:

Get online at sites like From the Pressbox that have scoring results from shows year to year. You will discover that there used to be way more local shows going on each week throughout the country. Also check out sites like CorpsReps that will give you an indication at how many corps there actually were competing during those years. More local shows each week, more corps that create more family/friends associated with those corps, equates to more fans attending shows; Less local shows each week, less corps competing, equates to less fans and family/friends attending shows. While there were no official numbers collected at all of those local shows, reason indicates there are less fans attending the overall combined shows today than years ago.

 

The raw number of shows is not the only variable you need to factor in to your assertion.You would also need to know the venues and their capacity, and the general audience counts at those myriad local shows. I marched in the Garden State Circuit in 68 and 69, taught there in 76 and 77, and judged from 76-80'ish. Many of the shows were run only because the member corps had to run one to belong to the GSC, and there was little, if any, attendance. Some were held on empty fields that used the host's equipment truck as the 'pressbox'. I know of one held yearly on a pier in Havre' de Grace MD wher the only audience was people stopping by as they walked to their boats or local restaurants. 

There were a few with decent attendance, esp if a corps managed to hook up to a community event, like 4th of July, or a County Fair, or a Fireman's Parade.carnival. But evern there ;decent' meant a few hundred, not thousands.  

In my Cadet years, we had a show annually in nearby Lodi, NJ. We jokingly called it the Lodi Nationals...the HS "stadium" would seat no more than 600 or 700, and it was not filled. Typical of a NJ local show back pre-DCI. 

The basic point is...the count of shows is not the only thing you need to use to come up with your hypothesis.

 

 

 

[Mello Dude]

11 hours ago, Everyfan said:

If I understand your post correctly:

1) BD "trains" judges during the off season.

2) Talent doesn't matter. Anyone can be trained to be at the top level of DCI.

Wow. Also, I don't think you understand how little corps practice together before move in happens in May.

 You don't, let me amend it.

 

1) Better term would be "indoctrinate".  They do this very well and have a for a LONG time.  Smart and a quite an advantage (among others).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrinate

2) Let me clarify, talent makes less difference than instruction or show design.  The level of talent these days is very good.  You don't need "god-like" talent to teach a running 16th or 32nd note lick.  If you can't teach them to be very good you aren't teaching.  Today they show up being able to play all this.

I understand precisely how much they practice and they do a LOT more today than when I marched and that was a metric ton and we played a lot more music with less talent overall.

[Stu]

1 minute ago, MikeD said:

 

The raw number of shows is not the only variable you need to factor in to your assertion.You would also need to know the venues and their capacity, and the general audience counts at those myriad local shows. I marched in the Garden State Circuit in 68 and 69, taught there in 76 and 77, and judged from 76-80'ish. Many of the shows were run only because the member corps had to run one to belong to the GSC, and there was little, if any, attendance. Some were held on empty fields that used the host's equipment truck as the 'pressbox'. I know of one held yearly on a pier in Havre' de Grace MD wher the only audience was people stopping by as they walked to their boats or local restaurants. 

There were a few with decent attendance, esp if a corps managed to hook up to a community event, like 4th of July, or a County Fair, or a Fireman's Parade.carnival. But evern there ;decent' meant a few hundred, not thousands.  

In my Cadet years, we had a show annually in nearby Lodi, NJ. We jokingly called it the Lodi Nationals...the HS "stadium" would seat no more than 600 or 700, and it was not filled. Typical of a NJ local show back pre-DCI. 

The basic point is...the count of shows is not the only thing you need to use to come up with your hypothesis.

 

 

 

Sure, I also remember performing at shows in cow-country where a stand capacity of 100 only had 15 in the stands. That is why do not just rely on show numbers to come to my conclusion; I point to most attendance at local shows was/is family/friends, and way less corps equates to way less family/friends in which to attend shows.  It is not quantifiable, I realize that, I am not stupid as Cap contends, But it does stand to reason.

[Cappybara]

13 minutes ago, Stu said:

Cap: Your first two paragraphs here are acceptable; they engage in healthy debate.  Your last crosses into personal attack.  Be that as it may.

 

A) I have complimented design (as in the BD ’94 show design) and been critical of design (as in the 2012 BD show design).  And if you notice it is the ‘design’ which is the subject not ‘BD’.

 

  As a corps I have been completely complimentary of BD (noting loyal and great staff, high quality performers, and consistent high quality performance), and I will add here one of the best business models in DCI.  Again it is in show design and construction, not the corps itself that I am addressing concern.

 

B) I have stated that DCI and the corps need to be careful in that if they continue to treat the audience as ‘students’ in need of edification concerning the progression of the art form, as opposed to ‘fans’ that deserve to be entertained. And that they do risk losing audience attendance in the future if they continue down that path.  However…

 

C) Never did I equate design direction with cause/effect of ‘past’ audience numbers.  All I have pointed out are three facts, yes facts, and one conclusion based on reason. Fact #1 The recorded and verifiable audience numbers at the DCI major shows, with some fluctuation, has stayed pretty much the same since the inception of DCI; Fact #2 There are way less corps competing today than years ago, which is also verifiable, and thus it stands to reason less family/friends involved due to the fewer corps; and Fact #3 There are less local shows each week throughout the country now than years ago, yet another verifiable fact.  Conclusion: While there were/are no recorded numbers of people in attendance at local shows, if you combine all three facts, it stands to reason that while major show attendance has stagnated the ‘overall’ attendance has dwindled.  Again not based on show designs but based on those factors.

 

D) You attack me personally by stating that I either cannot comprehend (stupid) or I that I refuse to let truth sway my narrative (obtuse).  But if you go back and read my ‘narrative’, as you put it, my opinions are nothing as you describe.  It is actually a situation where 1) I do not like most post-Y2K show designs, whether BD or other, because they tend to treat the audience as students to be ‘edified’ as opposed to fans to be ‘entertained’; and 2) I do not like the chop-paste sound construction of many post-Y2K shows, whether BD or other, which contain little if any melodic structure and comprehensible musical phrasing, but it is now considered something to merely underpin the Visual.   I do contend that if the design teams continue down the path of ignoring the musical ‘entertainment’ of the fans they will run the risk of losing audience attendance; but I have only pointed out that attendance has dwindled in the past by referencing the demise of many corps and many local shows to indicate that it is possible to lose fans.

 

Apologies for the personal attack. 

My issue wasn't really with any criticism of BD. I know BD isn't everyone's cup of tea so I really don't care about that. 

Point B is conjecture in my opinion. 

Point C: it appears there has been a misunderstanding or you have been unclear in what your implications are by combining those three facts (I agree those are all irrefutable facts). When you combine those three facts, it is implied that you are correlating them together. It would be best to make it clear next time that all three of those facts are separate and not intertwined. 

 

As for your final point about local shows, I'm personally under the belief that those local shows would have been lost regardless of the direction of DCI due to a change in American culture, but that's a topic for another day

edit: I understand that my final paragraph is conjecture as well

Edited July 10, 2017 by Cappybara

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Apologies for the personal attack. 

My issue wasn't really with any criticism of BD. I know BD isn't everyone's cup of tea so I really don't care about that. 

Point B is conjecture in my opinion. 

Point C: it appears there has been a misunderstanding or you have been unclear in what your implications are by combining those three facts (I agree those are all irrefutable facts). When you combine those three facts, it is implied that you are correlating them together. It would be best to make it clear next time that all three of those facts are separate and not intertwined. 

 

As for your final point about local shows, I'm personally under the belief that those local shows would have been lost regardless of the direction of DCI due to a change in American culture, but that's a topic for another day

 Now we are back on track in understanding each other better!! And thank you for the apology.

[cixelsyd]

8 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

1. Difference between talking for others vs making observations on what people are doing 

2. http://m.dci.org/mobile/ViewArticle.dbml?atclid=210283444&DB_OEM_ID=33500&

http://www.flomarching.com/article/45989-record-crowds-gather-at-dci-events-but-that-s-just-half-the-story

http://soundsport.com/dci-programs-growing-position-business-strength/

(Apologies for any mobile links, im currently abroad and using a smartphone)

3. I'm not categorically dismissing anything, I am punching holes in Stu's argument. I have not made any claim that design changes are NOT leading to lower attendance, I have been refuting that it's the major or only factor.

 

No, you tried to dismiss any possibility of it being a factor.  But thanks for walking that back.

(By the way, that FloMarching article is garbage.  Incorrect attendance data, absurd extrapolations.  I suggest you stick to DCI press releases to corroborate your assertions.)

[Cappybara]

6 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

No, you tried to dismiss any possibility of it being a factor.  But thanks for walking that back.

Sorry for not making my position clearer, there was no walking anything back. 

[ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar]

23 hours ago, Stu said:

Here is what I am getting at:

DCI pre-Y2K: Fan 1 “Wow, that was Awesome!"; Fan 2 “Yep, that was Phenomenal!”

DCI post-Y2k: Fan 1 “Ummmmm, I realize it was high quality, but what was that?”; Artistic Academic “That was a progression of the Visual Performance Art form where the subtle nuances are characterized by the Tai Chi, and the intellectual stimulation derives from the play within a play conceptual motion with underlying sound enhancement, while the….”; Fan 1 interrupts, “Huh?”; Artistic Academic gives Fan 1 a patronizing smile, then turns and whispers to himself “Troglodyte.”

I came here for the straw man arguments. I am not disappointed.

[drumcorpsfever]

I came across this older thread on a similar subject of "Chop and Paste", aka "Chop n' Bop": 

Excerpts from mfrontz post:

“DCI corps beginning in the 90s and more predominantly in the 00s no longer exclusively present musical arrangements. Rather, they often use the building blocks of songs, pieces of music, and charts and arrange them in and out of order. They do this freely, so as to set a mood, highlight a section of the corps, tell a story, or illustrate a theme.”

“The 1995 Blue Devils use portions of Chick Corea's "Day Danse" to illustrate a section of their show "Carpe Noctem." The 2002 Cavaliers put the Frameworks melody through its paces not in order to present an interpretation of the chart "Frameworks," but to present a eleven-minute drum corps show with a coherent musical and visual theme, everything working together reinforcing the idea of a "frame." The 2003 Blue Devils freely use Dave Brubeck's material from "Blue Rondo a la Turk" to express the idea of "cool." The 2008 Crossmen use musical themes and motifs from "The Planets," in opposition to the 1985/95 Cavaliers who present an arrangement of "The Planets."

"Chopping," or "cutting-and-pasting," rather than being necessary in order to accommodate an arrangement to the timing and instrumental limitations of drum and bugle corps, now becomes a way for the arranger or designer to most effectively express the theme, tell the story, or expose the technical proficiency of the performers for maximum effect.