boxingfred Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I was so distracted by the lack marching and music, I didn't even notice the altered applified voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMystreaux Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 that really wasn't necessary dude.... Actually, he was dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Had it been challenged, even on finals night, we could well have had a scandal - possibly either side could have felt cheated. If ruled against BD, we'd be discussing "how could DCI allow BD to do that all year and THEN slap them with a penalty," and on the other side, well we're kind of having that discussion now except that it was never challenged. I don't know, rules are rules. If I get caught speeding to work, and I told the cop he can't write me a ticket now, because I go ten miles over the speed limit every day this year and haven't gotten called out, he's not going to care. When I marched in WGI, my IW group had a show that was very heavily built around sequenced dialogue that was programmed into a synth. At the time, it was a grey area, and we decided that there was nothing that was specifically stated in the rules so we had it as a MAJOR part of our show. We did about four regionals with no issues/penalties. Then, the Regional the weekend before Championships we got penalized for the sequencing (again, it was words and not any kind of music/timing aid: in fact, it was harder to play with the sequenced stuff sometimes), missed finals for the Regional, and were told we'd be DQ'ed at Championships if we did it again. We spent all week of Championships reworking our show instead of cleaning it and ended up 5th when we could've done possibly a bit better. Our staff took up huge issues with WGI not calling us out/clarifying the rules before that point, but they didn't care and said, basically, a rule's a rule and we can't break 'em and not suffer the penalties. I bet that since the voice modulation wasn't noticeable/obvious it went undetected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 BFD...Can we move on to 2008 now? So who is going to cheat this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I was so distracted by the lack marching and music, I didn't even notice the altered applified voice. ZING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdostie Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I don't know, rules are rules. If I get caught speeding to work, and I told the cop he can't write me a ticket now, because I go ten miles over the speed limit every day this year and haven't gotten called out, he's not going to care.When I marched in WGI, my IW group had a show that was very heavily built around sequenced dialogue that was programmed into a synth. At the time, it was a grey area, and we decided that there was nothing that was specifically stated in the rules so we had it as a MAJOR part of our show. We did about four regionals with no issues/penalties. Then, the Regional the weekend before Championships we got penalized for the sequencing (again, it was words and not any kind of music/timing aid: in fact, it was harder to play with the sequenced stuff sometimes), missed finals for the Regional, and were told we'd be DQ'ed at Championships if we did it again. We spent all week of Championships reworking our show instead of cleaning it and ended up 5th when we could've done possibly a bit better. Our staff took up huge issues with WGI not calling us out/clarifying the rules before that point, but they didn't care and said, basically, a rule's a rule and we can't break 'em and not suffer the penalties. I bet that since the voice modulation wasn't noticeable/obvious it went undetected. I don't take issue with anything you've said. And past "indulgences" or oversights do not justify the present, but if it were totally gray, and the judges waited until finals night, and then in effect ambushed, I would have issues with it - as I think your staff did on the regionals for WGI. And to clarify, when I say it wasn't challenged, I am thinking of an example, say in baseball, the home plate umpire calls a ball, if the catcher doesn't appeal, the 1st base umpire and/or 3rd base umpire are not consulted and the call stands - even if it was a strike. Doesn't make it right, just means it stands; therefore it's the catcher's job to appeal (I hope I got that right). Likewise, it was Hop's job to appeal, and then the judges would have been forced to make a stand. If I am playing something with a judge standing right in front of my bell, and he doesn't have a copy of the score, lets say I mess up, but it doesn't sound bad - just not what it's supposed to be, (I'm from the old days so tick's apply), I don't get ticked, or I guess today we're continuing to "build" points even though I didn't play the piece right. Those things are part of the competition. On the other hand, it would be wrong of DCI to purposefully overlook something that they know is against the rules until someone forces them to make a judgement - which would likely be at the most advantageous time for the person/corps bringing it up, and at the worst possible time for the corps in question. This is especially (or perhaps only true) when there is some gray area, if it's crystal clear, then "you rolls your dice and you takes your chances." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutMello Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 No, absolutely not. So to make sure I understand your position here: Using electronic devices to change the pitch of an acoustic sound in a drum corps show is not only allowed by DCI rules, but is also in the spirit of the activity? Basically, since it was okay for BD to change the pitch of a spoken voice, it's also okay the change the pitch of anything else fed through a mixing board. Including amplified instruments. That is the precedent being set, and the precedent many people are concerned about. That is the issue being discussed. You don't think that is a valid issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 But in the amp section it DOES say that amping the human voice is allowed....it does NOT address the issue of CHANGING the sound produced by the performer by the time it hits the speakers...that's the gret area. BUT, Amping the human voice IS changing the sound. Amplifying, i.e. changing the amplitude, occurs when the "height" of the sound wave is increased. This makes it louder. But, it IS changing the wave. In the same way, changing the horizontal distance peak-to-peak of a wave is a change in Frequency. This changes the pitch. This debate has been about amplification, which is deemed ok, and which is a change in wave height; vs. "modulation" or a change to wave frequency, which is deemed not ok. But, that's illogical, because in both cases, the sound wave is being changed. Why is changing it in the "y" direction ok but not in the "x" direction? In either case you are changing the wave. So, I fail to see a distinction. Therefore I agree with Mike D, completely. Mike, this May be a first - please stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 BUT, Amping the human voice IS changing the sound. Amplifying, i.e. changing the amplitude, occurs when the "height" of the sound wave is increased. This makes it louder. But, it IS changing the wave. In the same way, changing the horizontal distance peak-to-peak of a wave is a change in Frequency. This changes the pitch.This debate has been about amplification, which is deemed ok, and which is a change in wave height; vs. "modulation" or a change to wave frequency, which is deemed not ok. But, that's illogical, because in both cases, the sound wave is being changed. Why is changing it in the "y" direction ok but not in the "x" direction? In either case you are changing the wave. So, I fail to see a distinction. Therefore I agree with Mike D, completely. Mike, this May be a first - please stop it. I dont see it at all. Amplification = changing the amplitude of a wave, not the frequency. Besides, if dci disallowed a 'delay' effect in another corps (i think that refers to a wave phase....but its been a while for my physics), then they are clearly stating that amplifying means changing the amplitude, and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daave Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 "No, absolutely not." So to make sure I understand your position here: Using electronic devices to change the pitch of an acoustic sound in a drum corps show is not only allowed by DCI rules, but is also in the spirit of the activity? Basically, since it was okay for BD to change the pitch of a spoken voice, it's also okay the change the pitch of anything else fed through a mixing board. Including amplified instruments. That is the precedent being set, and the precedent many people are concerned about. That is the issue being discussed. You don't think that is a valid issue? Oh, man.... Ray Charles could sooooooooooooo see the response to this one coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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