Cadets

[HockeyDad]

No, it's because some of us have studied statistics and econometrics or even public choice economics.

BTW I also studied statistics. But back in the day there was no such thing as "econometrics" or "public choice economics." Why, back in the day, we made fun of such made up self-importance.

[madscout96]

Of course. But that's not booing of a corps, but rather booing because the crowd wanted Madison placed higher.

But it is booing, and it's one of many examples of how booing has been a part of the culture of drum corps shows for a long time.

[mad_scotty]

this entire argument presupposes that DCP comprises a significant portion of the drum corps audience. DCP readers are "high-information" consumers, whereas my experience on tour for the past several seasons is that the overwhelming majority of show attendees are "low-information" in that they have little or no contact with drum corps when the corps are not in town.

they are parents, family members, local band kids, etc. who have no idea what DCP is, let alone how to vote in a poll regarding a rule they don't even know is controversial. drum corps is a very niche activity and DCP is a small niche of that niche.

the only thing i'm presupposing here is ignorance on the part of some of the people who are involved in this discussion about the function of online communities. i think if you reread my post, in its entirety, you'll find that i am stating that a community is not a statistical sample, and that poll type statistics are not the relevant information you glean from such communities.

[jordsterr]

do you realize that this post is basically one long mixed metaphor? i say that, because in all seriousness, you're lisitng great examples of composers who wrote to the audience instead of to a small group of narrow minded (microphone loving) elitists. well, ok, none of the elitists of their day knew about microphones, but they were still elitists who wanted to define and control art and keep activities like opera and the symphony away from anything that appealed to the masses instead of to the small groups of courtiers who paid most of the composers commissions. mozarts don giovanni and beethovens fifth were the 95 madisons of their day, not the 93 stars.

I see your point. But you're not entirely correct. Beethoven's Third was roundly criticized, but it did set the stage for later works. His "Battle of Wellington" was the 95 Madison of the day....not so much the 5th Symphony.

All of Mahler's work was the 93 Star of the day.

Mozart's "Le Nozze di Figaro" was more like the 93 Star of the day, but don't confuse fact with the movie Amadeus.

"Die Zauberflote" was indeed the 95 Madison of it's day.

So, I would submit to you that, in our little community, maybe there is really less difference between shows than we want to admit.

[Legalhack]

BTW I also studied statistics. But back in the day there was no such thing as "econometrics" or "public choice economics." Why, back in the day, we made fun of such made up self-importance.

Econometrics (the application of statistics in economics) was a well-establised sub-field long before I received my first econ degree in '87 (Tinbergen and Frisch won their Bank of Sweden prizes in economics, the "Nobel" for the field, in '69) and Buchanan, the father of public choice theory, won his Bank of Sweden prize in economics 22 years ago. So, when was "back in the day?"

Edited June 1, 2008 by Legalhack

[Dale Bari]

In separate posts about the scientific validity of Gallup polling vs DCP, you said these two things:

dcp only provides a representative sample if you are trying to poll people who (1) have heard of dcp (few)....

dcp polls have no way to ... account for people lying.

First, what does knowing about DCP matter? In doing a telephone survey, does Gallup ask the respondent, "Have you ever heard of Gallup before?" Would that be considered a proper, scientific screening question? Of what relevance to the poll's validity would be knowing about the polling org's existence? This argument against the validity of DCP polls is itself invalid.

Second, how does Gallup account for respondents lying to them? They can't and don't. In the recent Presidential primary elections we have heard about the so-called "Bradley Effect" (where white respondents would supposedly say they supported the black candidate, then not vote for him.) There is no scientific way to account for respondents lying to the pollster. So, this argument is invalid as well.

You invoked a comparison to Ron Paul winning online polls and getting creamed in actual elections. A problem in online polls is the ability of one user to vote multiple times. Are we not on DCP only supposed to have one username? And each username gets one vote only. Your "vote early, vote often" scenario on DCP is awfully convenient. Even if someone on here "cheats" and has multiple usernames, how much can that skew a poll with 100 respondents and an 80/20 result?

This is not an argument for the scientific validity of DCP polls, but rather against the screeds completely dismissing the value of any DCP poll. Madscout's lengthy posts about using online communities for detecting trends and gathering info on consumer tastes seem quite valid for these situations. It seems that DCI is missing a golden opportunity.

I also detect at least a whiff of hypocrisy by people who participate in DCP, yet deny that anything said here (including their own posts) is worthwhile. Either that or they think their own opinions are meaningless. If I checked out any threads containing polls, would I find them posting (except to badmouth the existence of the poll & thread)?

[Lance]

I participate in dcp and think the polls on dcp are representative of people who vote in polls on dcp. No hypocrisy here. I find plenty of value in the opinions people give on here, or I wouldn't participate. Saying dcp polls aren't good models for data collection isn't the same as saying convesation on dcp is wothless. I'm not sure where that came from.

[Jeff Ream]

yes, i'm saying that. the cadets are adults. they can handle it.

just because doing something won't have the intended effect doesn't mean that doing it is a nice thing to do. if you want to boo 20 year olds because of their show, i think that is classless, inane, and generally deplorable, but it isn't going to change their performance. sorry.

we're told by doing it, we're hurting the kids and ruining their experience. so which is it? not that I condone it, but do you not see the contradiction here?

[Jeff Ream]

Well, obviously, because the results of the polls don't agree with certain people's points of view. Therefore, they are dismissed by them.

[Jeff Ream]

I participate in dcp and think the polls on dcp are representative of people who vote in polls on dcp. No hypocrisy here. I find plenty of value in the opinions people give on here, or I wouldn't participate. Saying dcp polls aren't good models for data collection isn't the same as saying convesation on dcp is wothless. I'm not sure where that came from.

Mike