Why the Blue Devils should've scored higher than 99.05

[mellophonium]

Not BS... but thanks for the detailed and well thought out response...

Also... any more nominations for hardest show ever?

Star '91

Now go away

[xmarcoestradax]

,

Edited November 5, 2009 by xmarcoestradax

[xmarcoestradax]

There is no way that Carolina Crown's brass performance was a 19.6. I'm not saying BD was better than Crown, quite the opposite in fact. If ever a show has deserved a perfect 20 in brass, it was Crown this year. Granted, I wasn't down on the field, so I don't really know what individual issues there were going on, but to me it seems like Jeff Harper was playing the numbers game and gave them a 19.6 so he wouldn't be pigeonholed into giving BD a perfect 20 if they performed better than Crown that night (which is pretty much what happened when BD got a perfect 20 at quarters in 2004). I'm sorry, but this Crown hornline blows that Devils one (2004) out of the water from start to finish. I haven't heard a hornline sound that good in person, and judging from CDs/DVDs I think the only corps that might give them a run for their money are the early 90s Star hornlines and a couple of BD shows from the mid-90s (94, 99 come to mind), and maybe, in terms of balance and blend, Cavaliers '02 (but they certainly didn't bring the volume Crown did this year). In a realistic world, Crown scores a 19.8 on finals night (or 19.9), BD gets a 19.6 or 19.7, ends up with a total music score of 29.55 and beats the Cavaliers score from '02 and Cadets from '05 by a tenth.

And don't even get me started on BD's visual scores. How they got less than a perfect 20 in field visual on finals night is beyond me. I have never, ever, ever, ever seen a display of technique like that on a football field, and I consider myself somewhat of a technique guru. You idiots can yap all you want about their lack of demand - which is pure and utter bull****, btw. . . Crown and BD were comparable this year. Cadets blew them both out of the water, but since when is that anything new? - but there was clearly no corps that held a candle to the visual clinic BD put on Saturday night in Indianapolis. I've spoken with several other people whose opinion of marching technique I respect, and they all pretty much agree. No one ever moves like the Blue Devils, but I think this is one of the best marching BD corps since maybe 2003 or 2001.

[/rant]

I have to agree with you 110% on this. I have to admit that when I saw BD in San Antonio I wasn't impressed by them. It could've been where I was sitting or just the fact that I was able to hang out with my famile after two months but whatever...I didnt like the chairs, but thats because I REALLY didnt WATCH the show. When I saw them on finals night I was just blown away by the way they moved and how clean they were. I was even impressed as i watched them march onto the field. Crowns hornline was just amazing...I went to my first drum corps show in 2004, and I guess I was spoiled with a lot of awesome shows that year IMO. The best hornline I've heard live and I found myself totally engaged in their performance finals night. Crown should've had a higher brass score and BD should've scored a 20 visually. I'm looking forward to 2010 to see what they bring again.

[BigHoosierMack]

And? Why do you think the roll-step was invented?

Sorry, I just don't see your point here. To say it's not innovative because they did it to sound better is a poor argument.

See, the tempo alone isn't the problem.

During my brief time there, the staff did a LOT of experimentation regarding ways to move you VAST distances very quickly. Admittedly some of them were REALLY silly, and got about 3 reps before they were scrapped.

This iteration of the crab step is obviously a result of that experimentation. You physically could NOT move your feet at 236 and travel with the same step size they did.

It would be physically impossible, and if you think I'm wrong, 5 minutes and a youtube video should make me change my mind. But noone will, because noone can. If they could have, why would one of the most efficient and well oiled visual machines in the world have invested the time?

Thats why it's innovative. It was traveling farther, faster than previously possible with other techniques.

It was also appropriately thematic, what with the tap-dancing and cabaret shows of the era.

~M

Edited November 5, 2009 by BigHoosierMack

[liebot]

See, the tempo alone isn't the problem.

During my brief time there, the staff did a LOT of experimentation regarding ways to move you VAST distances very quickly. Admittedly some of them were REALLY silly, and got about 3 reps before they were scrapped.

This iteration of the crab step is obviously a result of that experimentation. You physically could NOT move your feet at 236 and travel with the same step size they did.

It would be physically impossible, and if you think I'm wrong, 5 minutes and a youtube video should make me change my mind. But noone will, because noone can. If they could have, why would one of the most efficient and well oiled visual machines in the world have invested the time?

Thats why it's innovative. It was traveling farther, faster than previously possible with other techniques.

It was also appropriately thematic, what with the tap-dancing and cabaret shows of the era.

~M

So. . . you agree with me? Why did you quote me?

[euponitone]

I'm assuming he was agreeing with you. Anyway - BD 09 certainly was somewhat innovative for using the crab step to go very fast, but I cant say for sure who did pioneered it. We used it to 220 bpm in 2005, which is a shade slower, but hardly in a different universe. We did it for the same reasons....it made impossible moves possible....just barely. It also fit the concept....and we did it for an extended phrase, not just one move. Anyway, I find it hard to believe that we were the first to do it that fast, but maybe I'm wrong. As far as being impossible....didnt BD hit 250 / 260 bpm in 2004 with standard technique? It was a short phrase....an accel, but it was still there.

[Drumcorpsfan471]

I'm assuming he was agreeing with you. Anyway - BD 09 certainly was somewhat innovative for using the crab step to go very fast, but I cant say for sure who did pioneered it. We used it to 220 bpm in 2005, which is a shade slower, but hardly in a different universe. We did it for the same reasons....it made impossible moves possible....just barely. It also fit the concept....and we did it for an extended phrase, not just one move. Anyway, I find it hard to believe that we were the first to do it that fast, but maybe I'm wrong. As far as being impossible....didnt BD hit 250 / 260 bpm in 2004 with standard technique? It was a short phrase....an accel, but it was still there.

I remember them getting up around that tempo in '04, but I don't think they marched it. I'm pretty sure they were all jazz running. Still very impressive.

[Creep]

As far as being impossible....didnt BD hit 250 / 260 bpm in 2004 with standard technique? It was a short phrase....an accel, but it was still there.

The drumline was playing at 260bpm by the end of the accel; as for us marchers, we basically jazz ran as fast we possibly could. Some of us could actually jazz run at the 260 tempo, but it wasn't a requirement. Basically just, if you can do it, great, keep doing it....if you can't (and some people couldn't), well, basically swing those legs as fast as you can. But the music tempo was indeed at 260bpm.

[boxingfred]

There is a big difference in playing 220 bpm and marching and playing 220 bpm.

[jwillis35]

Whenever this topic comes up on DCP, Cadets 1997 is usually mentioned more than any other show.

Some interesting posts. Here are some of my observations from this past season.

1. Hardest show of 2009: probably Cadets, but Crown's show was darn hard, and BD does not get the credit they deserve. It takes some training to lock in on the demands in their show, especially when listening to the arrangements, key, range, musical line, and demand on the performer.

2. Hardest show of all-time: not the Cadets 2009. Perhaps visually I would take Cadets 2009 over their 1997 show, but in 1997 they did not have to water the horn book down as much. If you listen to that horn book you will be in awe that anything like that could really be performed on a football field. Trust me. You need to hear it if you haven't. Star 1993, Cadets 1993, Blue Devils 1993 are also excellent musical books for which there are not a lot of equivalents in this activity. BD 1997, or even 1986 or 1988 are also amazing.

The interesting thing with the Cadets this past year was this: they had a great visual book, but as exciting as their music was at times, some of the connectedness of themes and ideas didn't always gel. Still, many kudos to Holy Name for, by and large, entertaining the heck out of most of us. It was a great show to watch, with tons of energy. In the end, what hurt them was not being able to truly clean all aspects of it and perhaps being able to amend some of the transitions. But why be picky, I would watch a show like that any day. It doesn't have to win to be great.

3. As for the BD argument, I felt their score should have been right where it was. They deserved to win and they were the best overall corps on the field this summer. Maybe the visual was not your cup of tea, but it wasn't easy, and man did they march the holy heck out of it. As Jeff mentioned, they set the bar high, give the members appropriate demand, and they achieve. I, personally, enjoyed their show, but I could understand why others didn't. I would not have argued with the judges had they scored a perfect 20 in visual. They were flat out amazing.

4. As for Crown. I loved their brass performance. It is tough to compare years, but that was one heck of a horn line. Deserved the top honor. Their show didn't excite me the way 2008 did, but I still found things to enjoy. They took 2nd largely because Holy Name couldn't quite clean the spots off of their show, but that's how it goes sometimes.

5. Back to the demand vs. design vs. performance issue: Generally speaking, the corps that wins combines the best balance of those 3 ingredients. They have design, demand, and great performance. It can't be all demand. Some folks may have watched SCV and thought, "hum...not much demand," but in reality that show was very demanding. Speed, volume, and range are not the only indicators of demand. Timing, tempo changes, types of movement, style, key, musical nuance, and more all add immeasurable amounts of demand to a show, providing they are added with taste and purpose. BD can sometimes show us what's in the left hand (chairs), but in the right hand we miss the true grit of their show that gains the points. We couldn't see it because the flashy elements hide the underpinning of show (execution).