Putting my cards on the table

[Bob984]

I know over the last ....while or so it appears...no all my post have been negative. I hate being a negative person. I'm usually ther kind of person that tries to find solutions. And I think thats wre some of my frustrations come from with the activity. So I'm going to list my issues in no particular order

1- The music. As I write this I'm listening to Chuck Mangione's Land of Make Believe. I first heard this song from a drum corps. Alot of music I like now I got from corps. My favorite song ...Appalichain (sic) Spring from corps. I found music from Aaron Copeland to Dave Brubek that I wouldn't have. I haven't heard anything in the last 15 years that makes me want to find the orginal except 2 pieces, Canyon and Pollock. I think the "snippet" arranging is hurting things. There is very little (at least to me) memorable music.

2- Nothing is being done to ensure the long term survival of the acivity. The current problems with the economy will only hurt more corps under the current touring system. Gas is at an all time high, insurance, fees, rentals, and now corps have to pay to us music. But instead of finding ways to reduce cost they add amplifaction which cost money. And while its not mandotory we all know to win you have yo keep up with the jones..or Blue Devils or Cavies. It hurts the smaller corps. It hurts the larger corps. Until a top 12 corps doesn't field for a year or more no one will care that the Southwinds, Cap Regs and others are not around anymore.

3- Its not really about the kids. Yes I know it was never about the kids or this corps or that corps is about the kids. But in general its all about winning. Directors, instructors, parents being to say they were involved in a winning corps. Would I start a corps if I had the money, yes. But I won't have them practing every day. I would let them see the sights. Play at an amusement park so they could get in free. And yes compete at shows. The year I marched I was in 18 states ands 33 cities. And got one day off. So the only time I got to see anything beside a practice field or staduim was when we travelled. And how many kids are over 18. We need to stop saying this its about the kids. Its about winning.

4- An issue I had with some of the people in DCP. Recently there was a thread about a blind girl in the Bosie band. Some mean and gruel things were said and it took 6 pages to be shut down. I write something and it takes 2 post. I'm thinking is this the kind of discussion board I want to be associated with? Get over it you say? Until you been called cruel and nasty names you get over it. Until you been well until it happens to you you won't understand.

Has the activity gotten better. Of course. All things gets better, sports players are bigger and stronger, car are safer and drum corps are doing things they didn't years ago. But lets stop thinking about today and start worrying about tomorrow. If Kodak can change then so can the activity.

I agree with some of what you say............

(1) music.......totally agree.......the "snippet" arranging technique is, for me, generally ineffective, yet is done to death....

now, some corps arrangers even take a great piece of music, and try to "rewrite it" and it ends up weak.....

(2) the "smaller" corps have their own league now, the open class, and they can make rules/policies which benefit

themselves. There really are not any small corps in the world class....perhaps some smaller than others, but

they have done it for awhile and know what to expect. The activity has been, and is, expensive, and I do not believe

much can be done to change that. I think it would be good to go for more corporate sponsorship, but those are tough

to get these days, too.

(3) I still believe it is about the kids.....however, I do agree to an extent that the "egos" of designers/arrangers and

the desire of some staff to win can be a bit extreme. I've never been in a corps that didn't get a day off here or there,

including one that won it all. However, if it was strictly about "winning", I think many more corps would have folded by

now......I think all of the corps work their tales off to be as good as they can be, and that's a good thing to learn.

My bigger concerns with corps are.....

(1) I think holding nationals in one bad sounding venue for many years in a row is a very bad idea, and I fear the impact

this will have........probably a nationals down the road with under 10,000 in the stands.......factor in cost of tickets,travel,

accomodations, and I think this will be reality.......

(2) Hopefully all will be done to keep open class stable and growing, and that some more groups will grow to world class.....

(3) More fan friendly shows and many more appearances/standstills/exhibitions could help us attract new fans......

Everyone on DCP should have the right to express their opinions......nothing should be "shut down" unless totally out of line....

GB

[jpaul]

What many people forget is that we are TRAINED to look for problems to fix. It was drilled into my head when I marched to pick apart every aspect of a performance, to fix every tic. As a high school band director for 30+ years who grew up in drum corps, taught corps, judged etc., my whole being is about spotting problems and mistakes that need to be fixed. Because of this, I'm also seen as a negative person.

While I have learned the difference ( over the years), the only ones I really make an effort to be positive with are the groups that are so bad it does nothing for them when you point out the problems. A group with 12 horns -6 drummers and 4 flags that is in over their heads should only be given comments to point out their positives...........they already know they suck, but are at least TRYING to field SOMETHING.

I have no problem ripping DCI a new one, after all, it's DCI that has changed drum corps from a youth activity for the kids to an enterprize that makes it's way off the back of kids. Yes, it's the power people of the member corps who make those decisions. Therein lies the problem.

What they do on the field is truly amazing but their mission is no longer for the kids as much as it's a moving billboard for the suppliers and people who make a living off of those who can afford to march.

Call me negative, but I can see the elephant in the room and I choose NOT to ignore it unlike so many who say "what elephant ?" .

It is possible to see problems and look for solutions without "ripping someone a new one." Just sayin'

And, if it's "no longer for the kids" how does the evil empire (DCI) convince thousands of kids to pay thousands of $$$ to spend all summer busting their butts to be great. The "moving billboard" helps to support the activity so those kids continue to have places to do what they love.

[Richard]

It is possible to see problems and look for solutions without "ripping someone a new one." Just sayin'

And, if it's "no longer for the kids" how does the evil empire (DCI) convince thousands of kids to pay thousands of $$$ to spend all summer busting their butts to be great. The "moving billboard" helps to support the activity so those kids continue to have places to do what they love.

Excellent post.

Also,

If yours is the prevailing attitude, then the problem must be compounding itself. $15,000 is not an insignificant amount of money. More importantly, given the number of budget items a corps has little ability to change, this was one that could have been avoided. But when the corps that have another $15,000 handy are making the rules for everyone, including the corps that don't have another $15,000 to spare, is it any wonder that the cost of competing continues to escalate....and the number of corps continues to decrease?

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...didn't we just hijack a whole thread discussing this (The Challenge)? Didn't we reach the conclusion that the $15,000 needed for electronics to compete in World Class has had almost no statistical impact on the total number of World Class corps? Didn't we agree that electronics are not needed to be competitive in Open Class - where that $15k off the bottom line would hurt a lot more? You seem to be a reasonable person, but when you say things like "is it any wonder that the cost of competing continues to escalate....and the number of corps continues to decrease?" in your response to a post about electronics and implying that electronics are one of the significant factors in the overall decrease in the total number of drum corps over the past 5 years, I have to question whether you're listening to the other side of the discussion at all, or just pushing forward with your agenda.

[bluecoats88]

2- Nothing is being done to ensure the long term survival of the acivity. The current problems with the economy will only hurt more corps under the current touring system. Gas is at an all time high, insurance, fees, rentals, and now corps have to pay to us music. But instead of finding ways to reduce cost they add amplifaction which cost money. And while its not mandotory we all know to win you have yo keep up with the jones..or Blue Devils or Cavies. It hurts the smaller corps. It hurts the larger corps. Until a top 12 corps doesn't field for a year or more no one will care that the Southwinds, Cap Regs and others are not around anymore.

Actually in 1990 a top twelve corps from the previous year disappeared. and the activity is still going even after that devestating loss. Also in the 90s three additional former top 12 corps disappeared and the activity still continued without them. So losing top twelve corps and former top twelve corps has happened many times and it was shocking at the time and a major loss, but the rest of the corps continued with their business.

Note - 1990 Suncoast folded after finishing in 9th the previous season

also Freelancers, Sky Ryders, and VK all departed during the 90s after being perennial top 12 members.

[audiodb]

Excellent post.

Also,

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...didn't we just hijack a whole thread discussing this (The Challenge)?

Yes....and it was a great discussion.

Didn't we reach the conclusion that the $15,000 needed for electronics to compete in World Class has had almost no statistical impact on the total number of World Class corps?

Frankly, no. The number of corps that get the privilege of being in world-class is arbitrarily set by DCI.

Didn't we agree that electronics are not needed to be competitive in Open Class - where that $15k off the bottom line would hurt a lot more?

We did agree that equipment types are not treated as "prerequisites to competitive success" in open-class like they are in world-class. However, that is not to say that they have no impact at all (particularly since a number of open-class corps have world-class aspirations).

You seem to be a reasonable person, but when you say things like "is it any wonder that the cost of competing continues to escalate....and the number of corps continues to decrease?" in your response to a post about electronics and implying that electronics are one of the significant factors in the overall decrease in the total number of drum corps over the past 5 years, I have to question whether you're listening to the other side of the discussion at all, or just pushing forward with your agenda.

Again, as we covered in great detail before, electronic instruments are just the one most recent example among a number of equipment rule changes over the DCI era....which in turn, are just one category among numerous others that affect the cost of running a competitive drum corps....which in turn, is just one of the challenges in keeping a corps alive. One that DCI has some control over.

[Mello Dude]

Actually in 1990 a top twelve corps from the previous year disappeared. and the activity is still going even after that devestating loss. Also in the 90s three additional former top 12 corps disappeared and the activity still continued without them. So losing top twelve corps and former top twelve corps has happened many times and it was shocking at the time and a major loss, but the rest of the corps continued with their business.

Note - 1990 Suncoast folded after finishing in 9th the previous season

also Freelancers, Sky Ryders, and VK all departed during the 90s after being perennial top 12 members.

Yes, it's still going forward with a severe limp. Give a carcass enough inertia and it'll continue to move forward for a while even though it's dead.

CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE.....change without a reason or logic to it is rather ignorant and self defeating; we are having buyers remorse right now because of an individual we elected screaming that mantra and see what that's gotten us. Hopefully, we will all learn from "change without thinking" and move forward intelligently.

[JimF-LowBari]

Actually in 1990 a top twelve corps from the previous year disappeared. and the activity is still going even after that devestating loss. Also in the 90s three additional former top 12 corps disappeared and the activity still continued without them. So losing top twelve corps and former top twelve corps has happened many times and it was shocking at the time and a major loss, but the rest of the corps continued with their business.

Note - 1990 Suncoast folded after finishing in 9th the previous season

also Freelancers, Sky Ryders, and VK all departed during the 90s after being perennial top 12 members.

Yeah losing corps has always happened.....

But if new corps don't come along to replace the ones that are lost.....

And it's all due to bad management right????

[BozzlyB]

Yes, it's still going forward with a severe limp. Give a carcass enough inertia and it'll continue to move forward for a while even though it's dead.

CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE.....change without a reason or logic to it is rather ignorant and self defeating; we are having buyers remorse right now because of an individual we elected screaming that mantra and see what that's gotten us. Hopefully, we will all learn from "change without thinking" and move forward intelligently.

That's a bit much isnt it? I mean the last few years have seen the re-emergance of corps to WC that were absent (in D1/D2) for close to 30 years, the addition of new corps to the ranks of WC. To say DCI is limping along is pretty inaccurate. Corps come and go. The reason there used to be a zillion corps many of which are no longer around has nothing to do with the changes to drum corps that have been voted in in the last 10 years.

[Ed from Kansas]

I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. Having marched drum corps before many of you were born, I may have a bit of a different perspective. The fact is that drum corps is supposed to be a youth activity is true. In fact, if you go to the DCI home page they specifically state that the activity is for persons 13-21. Sounds pretty youthful to me. Then, in the very next paragraph they say the average age is 19.4 years. Is there a bit of contradiction here?

Considering that today people are considered to be adult enough to vote and defend our country at the tender age of 18, is it a contradiction to say that an activity that is considered to a be a youth activity has an average age of 19.4 years?

I would not deprive any person the right to march in a drum corps until he is 21 years old. Conversly, why do so many corps deny youngsters under the age of 16 the right to try to march. I know that most corps give lip service to having auditions for 14-16 year olds, but how many have a realistic chance of winning a position? The answer is obvious when you look at the average age cited by the DCI.

Instead of trying to increase the age limit for people to march, let's force every corps to take younger members, as well. It is my personal belief that this would strengthen the activity, not weakken it. Parity is not a bad thing. Colleges and universities have had rules changes to make a more even playing field. This has also happened in professional sports. Dominance of any activity by a very few is detrimental to the entire activity.

There are many things that can be done to make drum corps better and more accessible for young people, but the first is to return to the roots of the activity and remember why we have Junior Drum Corps in the first place.

[Jeff Ream]

That's a bit much isnt it? I mean the last few years have seen the re-emergance of corps to WC that were absent (in D1/D2) for close to 30 years, the addition of new corps to the ranks of WC. To say DCI is limping along is pretty inaccurate. Corps come and go. The reason there used to be a zillion corps many of which are no longer around has nothing to do with the changes to drum corps that have been voted in in the last 10 years.

OC has the limp