Why Blue Devils Win

[tja273]

My bad, actually....whenever I read a thread, I always go to the first unread post and go from there. Not everyone does that (makes sense to me, tho.)

ADD vs OCD

[Bob984]

People were excited for a multitude of reasons. The reaction for Phantom 2008 wasn't just because it was a more entertaining or better show. There's the underdog thing, the super small margin thing, the "they haven't won their own Championship yet" thing, etc., etc., etc. There was more hype by nature and it wasn't just because people were less excited by BD.

Yeah, that must have been it......probably a bunch of people bused over from Illinois........they got the "sympathy" support..........NOT........

Even if Phantom had come in with 19 championships in a row, the people still would have gone wild for that show................I will say that people were angry after quarters and semis, as most people had them winning all 3 rounds.....I did.......people were totally moved by Phantom's show, and it had zippo to do with any outside factors.......BD executed, but their musical book did not move people.....Phantom played superior arrangements better, and sold the program totally......game over........Blue Devils had their shot, performing after Phantom in finals, and it was never more evident that Phantom connected with the audience at a much greater level than BD did, and it had everything to do with the quality of the arrangements, selling the story line of the show, incredible music effect, and good coordination......BD may have had a slight edge in visual performance, but not to the extent given out (if you really believe the 19.9's and perfect 20's were earned all week.....keep dreamin')

GB

[WestCoaster]

Yeah, that must have been it......probably a bunch of people bused over from Illinois........they got the "sympathy" support..........NOT........

Even if Phantom had come in with 19 championships in a row, the people still would have gone wild for that show................I will say that people were angry after quarters and semis, as most people had them winning all 3 rounds.....I did.......people were totally moved by Phantom's show, and it had zippo to do with any outside factors.......BD executed, but their musical book did not move people.....Phantom played superior arrangements better, and sold the program totally......game over........Blue Devils had their shot, performing after Phantom in finals, and it was never more evident that Phantom connected with the audience at a much greater level than BD did, and it had everything to do with the quality of the arrangements, selling the story line of the show, incredible music effect, and good coordination......BD may have had a slight edge in visual performance, but not to the extent given out (if you really believe the 19.9's and perfect 20's were earned all week.....keep dreamin')

GB

Let me see if I got this straight. Phantom earned it, people were even angered (interesting wording) when BD beat them two nights in a row. Finals night, the judges FINALLY saw the light and rewarded this program of superior arrangements played better. So, the judges saw what the audience saw and rewarded it.

Except for the visual judges, who gave out numbers that weren't earned.

Is that pretty much what you're saying?

Quick aside here though, if they, as you say, really connected so much better, why did BD win GE on finals night and not Phantom?

[Todd Tanji]

A quick suggestion for all - how about let the performers and staff worry

about the competitive aspect of drum corps and just sit back, relax and

enjoy the shows. Personally, I think you are ruining the experience for

yourselves by getting all wrapped up in it.

[jwillis35]

Let me see if I got this straight. Phantom earned it, people were even angered (interesting wording) when BD beat them two nights in a row. Finals night, the judges FINALLY saw the light and rewarded this program of superior arrangements played better. So, the judges saw what the audience saw and rewarded it.

Except for the visual judges, who gave out numbers that weren't earned.

Is that pretty much what you're saying?

Quick aside here though, if they, as you say, really connected so much better, why did BD win GE on finals night and not Phantom?

Actually, this is a great point and it raises the question that most of us have been discussing: judging, not BD.

BD won GE that night in 2008 and that is why Phantom barely beat them, but in my opinion Phantom should have won GE by .4 over BD. How BD was getting those numbers in GE is beyond me. Now, this is just one person's opinion, and I guess I am no expert at judging, but I believe it puzzles fans to no end when a show that doesn't connect with them, and one that seems choppy and not so well coordinated, wins a caption that ultimately has the power to determine a champion.

These are the same questions we were asking when Madison Scouts would give us great shows in 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999. Why were these shows not scoring so well in GE?

If the Blue Devils, or any other corps, beats an opponent because they outperform them, and those performance captions ultimately make the difference when weighted against GE, then so be it. Last year is a good example. I didn't find a superior GE show in BD. Good, but not great. But their performance was just flawless and I had them winning early on. I supported that even at semi-finals and finals. They were the best corps. I enjoyed some of the show and definitely saw its flaws from a construction and GE perspective, but they deserved the win. Cadets and Crown were excellent corps too, with very good GE and lots of demand, BUT they were sloppy even come Finals. Well, sloppy might be a bit tough o them, but they were not as clean, and therefore they could not exploit their advantage in content and GE.

I feel the same way this year. If other challengers do not exploit their advantage in content/GE/coordination of show elements by becoming really clean, they will lose to BD in the end. This is not to say that BD doesn't have any GE or that they lack good content. But there are a few corps that have a better overall product this year. Cadets, Cavaliers, Bluecoats, Crown come to mind. Which of these corps can stay close with BD in performance captions? All 4 of them will have to get pretty darn close and they need to clean clean clean. Only then will their advantage in GE (IMO) give them an edge.

I say this thinking that it should give them an edge as I see it. But judging is hard to figure out. As great as BD is, and I truly admire that, they very well could win high GE this year, and that is where I have a problem with the judging. I just don't see it or get it (and maybe that's just me). But I just can't buy the excessive choppiness and the dry musical ideas with no flow, no development beyond change of key, higher, faster, louder.

[WestCoaster]

As great as BD is, and I truly admire that, they very well could win high GE this year, and that is where I have a problem with the judging. I just don't see it or get it (and maybe that's just me). But I just can't buy the excessive choppiness and the dry musical ideas with no flow, no development beyond change of key, higher, faster, louder.

I appreciate all you wrote, but I just wanted to reply to this point...you are making a big assumption.

You wonder why BD is writing choppy and dry shows, but the part you miss is WHY are they writing it this way. It seems to me that they are writing what the judges are asking for (and it's certainly not a new idea).

A LOT of corps before BD wrote choppy arrangements and were rewarded for it. BD saw this, and gave the judges what they were asking for.

Until it is NOT rewarded, why on Earth would they change?

Also, there was a LONG dry stretch back in the late 80's, early 90's where BD was putting out their usual "whole production" product and getting slammed year after year for it (an unprecedented period of no titles coupled with several fourth place finishes and even a *yikes* FIFTH place in there!). You can't expect them to keep to the same old formula when the judging community was outright rejecting it, can you? I say kudos for being able to reinvent themselves.

[audiodb]

Also, there was a LONG dry stretch back in the late 80's, early 90's where BD was putting out their usual "whole production" product and getting slammed year after year for it (an unprecedented period of no titles coupled with several fourth place finishes and even a *yikes* FIFTH place in there!). You can't expect them to keep to the same old formula when the judging community was outright rejecting it, can you? I say kudos for being able to reinvent themselves.

What on Earth are you talking about? BD wasn't getting "slammed" for doing "whole productions". The corps placing ahead of them were doing "whole productions" too. And they didn't "reinvent themselves" in 1994....they simply made staff changes that improved performance in visual and drums. The show was typical BD fare (Chick Corea, some of which they had done in prior years).

[oldtimedrummer]

But there are a few corps that have a better overall product this year.

I disagree. What seems dry and choppy to you, had me on the edge of my seat and completely engaged. IMO BD is doing a lot intellectually that a lot of people seem to be missing. Stravinsky got the same reaction when the Rite of Spring was introduced in 1913. BD is out of the comfort zone of many fans. While the other corps you mentioned all have outstanding programs, they're really not bringing anything new to the table. Part of the philosophy within the judging community is to reward groups that break new ground, which is what BD is doing. I could be wrong, but with the amount of time left in the season, I don't see anyone catching the Devils.

[WestCoaster]

What on Earth are you talking about? BD wasn't getting "slammed" for doing "whole productions". The corps placing ahead of them were doing "whole productions" too. And they didn't "reinvent themselves" in 1994....they simply made staff changes that improved performance in visual and drums. The show was typical BD fare (Chick Corea, some of which they had done in prior years).

You really want to imply that staff changes "improved performance" in drums?

I wouldn't go there if I were you.

The game needed changing though, and they did a complete reboot in 94.

If you really don't think so, I don't know what to tell you. To say the show was "typical BD fare" is ridiculous. The source material may have been similar, but the presentation was all new.

And they haven't looked back since.

I love the old AND the new, but to say there was no defining line is absurd. 94 was IT, and if you don't agree go back and check out all the shows 93 and prior and compare them to the shows from 94 onwards. They are practically a different, completely updated thing.

[Jeff Ream]

Let me see if I got this straight. Phantom earned it, people were even angered (interesting wording) when BD beat them two nights in a row. Finals night, the judges FINALLY saw the light and rewarded this program of superior arrangements played better. So, the judges saw what the audience saw and rewarded it.

Except for the visual judges, who gave out numbers that weren't earned.

Is that pretty much what you're saying?

Quick aside here though, if they, as you say, really connected so much better, why did BD win GE on finals night and not Phantom?

because despite what it says on the GE sheets, it isn't always applied