Minneapolis Corps Directors Meeting

[DAvery]

This whole part of this thread is wrong on a couple of accounts. First, taken to it's final extrme, the idea of allowing corps to hold events outside of DCI will result in DCI being cut out of all corps activities.

DCI was invented by the corps. If they wish to change the rules, they can. The only way DCI could be cut out of all corps activities is if every corps chooses not to compete. That's not going to happen. And even if a corps does choose not to compete any longer, such as Star, isn't that their right?

Starving DCI of event revenues doesn't do the activity any good at all, and destroys the "brotherhood" concept envisioned by the Combine founders and all member corps since. It's wrong on all accords simply because of that fact.

The combine wasn't set up as a "brotherhood". The founders set up the combine to control their product. It was actually set up as a union. And if unions do not change with the times, they diminsh. Ignoring current realities will not make them go away. Ask any member of the UAW.

Secondly, the rules are specific: no corps can be involved in any activity that appears in competition with DCI (remember, the director/members WROTE these rules themselves). A parade does not compete with what DCI does so even ten corps in a parade is not problem even if the corps are paid. But a contest, an exhibition, and "event" where two or more DCI members are participating is strictly prohibited by the by-laws..

But a parade could compete with a DCI event. This is the rule that should be changed for ALL corps.

Also, corps may not issue any sort of audio/video release that contains more than one corps. The by-laws on A/V rights specifically addresses this issue..

This should be changed also. By the way a few years ago there was an All Star Drum Corps at a nationally televised parade. How was the AV release done for this?

Edited August 5, 2010 by DAvery

[BRASSO]

Yes, in a perfect world, there'd be enough of an audience for drum corps that everyone in America would be interested, but reality says otherwise. There's a finite audience, and a lot of THAT audience is disproportionately interested in the top acts in the business. Rather than telling the top acts that they should limit their ability to capitalize on their popularity, why not focus on finding ways to get the rest of the activity to start thinking outside the proverbial box with regards to building and capitalizing on fan affinity - something that Madison/Boston did very well just recently.

Nobody has told the G-7 Corps that " they should limit their ability to capitalize on their popularity ". The onus is on the G-7 however to demonstate that if such concession accommodations are made to the G-7 with this proposal, that it does not negatively impact the others in the process. So far, the G-7 proposal makes no such offers other than a series of provisions that are all one sided, and offer nothing at all in trade offs to the others in return for concession accommodations to the G-7.

You mention the recent " thinking outside the box" between the Boston Crusaders and the Madison Scouts, and their creative fund raising program. It was a good success for both Corps. Note that it was accomplished WITHIN the current DCI structure. When Boston asked Madison if they wanted to team up on this, it was done in a fashion that had no negative impact on the other DCI Corps, and was done in complete adherence to all the current DCI rules and regulations currently in place. Neither Corps made demands upon the other Corps in order to make their " thinking outside of the box" idea come to fruition. Contrast this with how the G-7 has gone about their business with their proposal here, and the difference could not be more striking.

Edited August 5, 2010 by BRASSO

[DAvery]

So far,the G-7 proposal makes no such provisions other than a a series of provisions are all one sided, and offfer nothing at all in trade offs to the others in return for concession accommodations to the G-7.

I'm not sure I agree with rules that only effect certain corps. Level the field. Change the rules for everyone.

[mobrien]

Nobody has told the G-7 Corps that " they should limit their ability to capitalize on their popularity ". The onus is on the G-7 however to demonstate that if such concession accommodations are made to the G-7 with this proposal, that it does not negatively impact the others in the process.

Define "negatively impact." You mean they make money that doesn't have to go through DCI's bank account first?

The idea of having "blackouts" on their super-show dates was stupid on their part, but that doesn't mean that the larger question of corps-specific performance bundling can't and shouldn't be attempted. If nothing else, it gives fans a way of evening the competitive field - if Madison wants to hold an "Old School Drum Corps" event or two, let them find out what kind of audience is out there to support it. They and their producing partners draw 20,000 people to a night of Old School drum corps, good for them and whoever partakes, and nothing really lost for anyone else.

The old/current model of "drum corps show tonight!" has been done for the last 40+ years - no harm in looking for alternatives/additions to the current formula.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mobrien

[BRASSO]

Define "negatively impact." You mean they make money that doesn't have to go through DCI's bank account first?

The idea of having "blackouts" on their super-show dates was stupid on their part, but that doesn't mean that the larger question of corps-specific performance bundling can't and shouldn't be attempted. If nothing else, it gives fans a way of evening the competitive field - if Madison wants to hold an "Old School Drum Corps" event or two, let them find out what kind of audience is out there to support it. Good for them and whoever partakes, and nothing really lost for anyone else.

The old/current model of "drum corps show tonight!" has been done for the last 40+ years - no harm in looking for alternatives/additions to the current formula.

The G-7 proposal is replete with provisions that if implemented would seriously undemine the other Corps in a variety of ways... the list is just too many to mention here. But here are a few : They want to strip away votes, and double their own votes..... they want to select their own judges.... they want to set up a system that sets in motion a group slotting system within the Word Class Division. The G-7 Corps already have enormous off season recruiting advantages. Just imagine the FURTHERED advantage they'd have in off season recruiting when potential marchers would know that it's already determined which 7 Corps in the following season are going to be performing at the best venues, the best time slots, with hand picked judges, interactive sessions with show sponsors, schools, etc and a whole host of other things that emphasize the G-7 Corps to the exclusion of the other World Class Divsion Corps. In such a scenario, in less than a year, one could expect that the point spread between the 7th and 8th place Corps to be widened significantly, not lessened... it would insitutionalize group slotting within the division. This would be outrageous if allowed. This wouldn't be a level playing field. Not in the least. It would be a rigged competition system, right from the getgo. If such a G-7 proposal was initiated in 1972, there is no way in the world that the Blue Devils, the Cadets, or the Cavaliers would be where they are today. That's because such a scheme if adopted in 1972 would have prohibited these non top 7 Corps at the time to overcome such a stacked deck against them and rise up the standings later as they did. This is what is so ironic about this power grab scheme attempt now too.... and I havn't even touched on what this proposal has in mind for the Open Class Corps... and about a dozen other ways that this proposal would negatively impact the other Corps.

Edited August 5, 2010 by BRASSO

[ShortAndFast]

Define "negatively impact." You mean they make money that doesn't have to go through DCI's bank account first?

The idea of having "blackouts" on their super-show dates was stupid on their part, but that doesn't mean that the larger question of corps-specific performance bundling can't and shouldn't be attempted. If nothing else, it gives fans a way of evening the competitive field - if Madison wants to hold an "Old School Drum Corps" event or two, let them find out what kind of audience is out there to support it. They and their producing partners draw 20,000 people to a night of Old School drum corps, good for them and whoever partakes, and nothing really lost for anyone else.

The old/current model of "drum corps show tonight!" has been done for the last 40+ years - no harm in looking for alternatives/additions to the current formula.

I'm not sure that either side is really looking for compromises right now. But I agree that a rule change that lets all corps seek revenue through other events is more palatable than one that enshrines the G7 as a specially-entitled group. As you say, on a given Sunday after a regional, there's room for both a G7 event and an "Old School" event. Who can say which will draw more fans - you don't know until you try.

I am curious whether the current DCI rules allow an event organizer to pay corps more than the standard appearance fee? Within the current rules, could Cadets organize a DCI-sanctioned show, invite the G7, pay DCI the judging fee, pay everyone the appearance fee, and then agree to split the profits amongst the participating corps?

[Jeff Ream]

well, I'll be glad to tell you that the last time I remember seeing DCI attendance figures, the only crowd that came closest to 40k in paid attendance was in Montreal. While I'm sure the Cottown Bowl had over 20,000 people in it, I'm sure quite a few had wristbands allowing them in for free.

so much so that some snagged seats by me in the Friends of DCI section that were empty.

Alright, the Cotton Bowl seats 92,100. The entire home side, bottom and top were full. You do the math....This is easy enough to confirm, just watch the video...oh yeah, I forgot, you obviously commented on something you knew nothing about....

[Jeff Ream]

I'm not sure that either side is really looking for compromises right now. But I agree that a rule change that lets all corps seek revenue through other events is more palatable than one that enshrines the G7 as a specially-entitled group. As you say, on a given Sunday after a regional, there's room for both a G7 event and an "Old School" event. Who can say which will draw more fans - you don't know until you try.

I am curious whether the current DCI rules allow an event organizer to pay corps more than the standard appearance fee? Within the current rules, could Cadets organize a DCI-sanctioned show, invite the G7, pay DCI the judging fee, pay everyone the appearance fee, and then agree to split the profits amongst the participating corps?

it's possible they may want to split the profits, but let's be realistic..the cadets need just as much if not more, since Hop himself admitted the cadets lose money every year and the rest of YEA's functions keep them going . Afte rall, if you have 80 bands coming to your championship event, each paying $775 doallrs apiece, you'd take that $62k and run after you pay for the stadium and judges

Edited August 5, 2010 by Jeff Ream

[Scerpella]

If you put yourself in the shoes of a "local show promoter" you'll see how difficult this will be to implement.

For example, let's say I'm a local TEP ( ) and I've negotiated with a local school to provide facilities (a stadium and seven schools) for only the cost of custodians, air conditioning, water, electric, and field repair/maintenance. That total tab comes to $15,000. The stadium holds 5000.

Let's say based on recent, successful experience I can reasonably assume that I can get 3000 fans in the stands, and I price the seating according to the "center/center" model where the most expensive seats are on the 50 and they cheaper the further away from the 50 and closer down to the field. The average ticket price for the whole stadium is $22, and I expect to fill the center first. If I'm successful I can count on $66,000 in revenue.

I have an $8,000 marketing budget that includes local newspapers, a few radio spots, mass-mailings to past show attendees, a few banners around town, and 5000 bookmarks to hand out during the local July 4th parade (staffed by show volunteers). I have to print programs ($4000), I have to pay a ticketing agency ($2/ticket times 1000 sold - $2000).

I have to pay the "tour coordinator" (DCI or YEA!, for example) a flat $7,500 fee to pay for judges, liaisons, etc.

I buy T-shirts for the stadium crew and staff volunteers ($650).

So far I've spent about $33,000 of my $66,000 expected income, and I watch the weather closely because a rain-out will eliminate 2000 of my 3000 of expected ticket sales (1000 sold pre-show via the internet).

Now I've got $33,000 with which to "negotiate" with corps to attract the most fans to the show. I know I can house 7 corps so, naturally, I start with the top 7 corps and enter "negotiations" to get them to come.

Upon contacting each I find out that 4 of those seven have already set their tour schedule and won't be in my area of the country even if I were able to pay them top dollar. The other three are asking $4000, $5000, and $6000 to attend my show. If I agree I've already spent nearly half of my corps budget, but I proceed.

Of the other 5 "top" acts (with, presumably, the most drawing power) I find that only two have not scheduled a performance on my show date and they each want $3000 to attend my show. So now I've got 5 corps and have agreed to spend $21,000 to host them (average $4,200 each). I've got $12,000 left and need two additional corps to fill my show. So I dip into the last years' 13 to 17 finishers and, after two days of phone calls, I find two corps who can attend my show. They want $3000 and $2000 respectively to attend. I'm down to $3000 "profit" if my estimates hold true. EDIT: I forgot I've got two holes to fill in my lineup, so I contact an Open Class corps and an "All-Age" corps and negotiate a $1500 total for the two of them. Subtracted $1500 from the net below.

I go to work and build my volunteer base, who then goes out and solicits sponsors and program advertisers. We sell $3000 in program ads and get commitments from sponsors totaling $3000. Sponsors want tickets to my net is $2500, and my "cushion" is up to $11,500.

Everything's a go. Show date arrives, corps roll in to town, and pre-show ticket sales have gone as expected (1000 sold pre-show).

Then, the afternoon weather builds and a drizzle begins 3 hours before show time. 60 minutes before step-off, the skies open up and Noah floats by in his boat. A few die hard fans sit through the rain but, in effect, there are no gate sales. After an hour's delay, the show is cancelled.

Now, what do I have as a local drum corps fan who works his butt off to bring a show to town (incidentally, losing about 4 days of productivity at my "real" job)?

$22,000 in pre-show tickets sales income and $5,500 in sponsorships; total $27,500.

And $38,500 in expenses. I'm in the hole nearly $11,500.

Now I, as the show "promoter", am also a master car salesman and a great negotiator (not really, but play along). How would I negotiate with the corps so that I not only cover my expenses but also give myself a small cushion to apply to next years' show?

And don't forget to put yourself in the shoes of the corps directors as you're imagining the negotiation; rain or shine they each have expenses and profit of their own.

Ready, GO! Make this work... I'm all ears (eyes)...

EDIT: And Mr. Zing-a-ling, apply your "$2000 and $10,000" pricing metric to this equation and do the math...

This doesnt really support anyones point here but the question that comes to me after I read this is...

What if modern DCI drum corps did not own $200K in pit equipment and another $100K in amplification equipment, $175K in horns, didnt design new uniforms every year, and didnt lease new busses for 2 1/2 months, and constitute a long caravan of expensive vehicles all needing fuel, and didnt need to have a rolling commisary with food and operators and didnt have "professional" staff instead utilizing people who were doing it for the love of the activity and didnt find it necessary to cross cross the country touring, and didnt compulsively rig the game to make sure all the competitive success stayed concentrated among a handful of groups thus slowly but certainly choking off the activity to all but a few?

What if the delusional power brokers in drum corps had realized years ago that drum corps they way the envision it will NEVER be more than a small niche activity? What if those same people didnt essentially use their drum corps to promote and market their personal skills to the wider marching band world for their own personal financial security? What if the so called stewards of the activity had actually done their jobs?

Perhaps there would be no need for proposals which concentrate more money and power into the hands of amateurs who brought the activity to this rotten pass in the first place?

[Scerpella]

Define "negatively impact." You mean they make money that doesn't have to go through DCI's bank account first?

It occurs to me the kind of thinking that finds the G7 model persuasive seems to come from all the people who when they hear Dinosaurs become indignant about how DCI is ruining drum corps, point out that DCI is the corps. If money is going through DCI's bank accounts first it is because the directors of the DCI corps who as pointed out are DCI have arranged it to be so.

They have created their own problems (to the detriment of the activity as a whole) and now whine when things dont go as they envisioned.