Pioneer

[BozzlyB]

ironic indeed.............. we did earn that 3rd div 2 title, dci choose to punish us.... there weren't any div 2 corps close to us in 96, and we were spanking div one ### all summer. spanking real hard and leaving hand prints! :tongue:

thank you DCI for not ripping that drum title from us.. 9.8 out of 10.. forever...that will be on my tombstone

isnt bdb going for number three now? is it there time for them to get punished as well?

Explain to me how DCI saying, "You're too #### good to compete in that division, welcome to Div 1 where you'll compete against corps in your performance range, have the chance to CONTINUE growth and upward momentum and make more money" is being punished. What was the point back then of staying in Div II? Just to win a 4th in a row? I thought Pioneer didn't care about winning? I certainly hope you're not implying that the move to Div 1 was the deciding factor that has led to a record number of consecutive last place finishes.

Edited September 17, 2010 by BozzlyB

[glory]

What an ironic question. The corps was demonized for wearing out their welcome in division II/III, particularly when the 1996 corps seemed like such an easy bet to take a third straight division II title. And now we question why they choose to compete in world-class?

Let me ask the reverse question. Anyone think that seven tenths of a point is enough of a deficit to justify moving to open-class, and competing against corps that (with rare exception) range from 20 to 70 members smaller than your corps?

I feel compelled to state for the record there was no malice intended in my question.

Now, to answer your question, I do wonder whether this ought to be more like the English soccer leagues where the best in one tier are promoted to the next tier and the worst are relegated to the tier below. I don't know the mid-90s history here. Whatever happenned then is less relevant than what's best for now. Is Pioneer's mission best served when can't compete successfully? I have my doubts whether it is.

HH

[glory]

Perception is the last thing on Roman's mind. He obviously doesn't care how his organization is perceived ...

Which is fine. But Roman isn't the only stakeholder. You might even argue he isn't the most important stakeholder. The question isn't what can he do. The question is what should he do.

Jersey Surf was persuaded to compete in World Class too. Last year they finished two rungs and two points higher than Pioneer. Did their relative success spoil the experience for anyone wearing that uniform? I doubt it.

Pioneer has many engaged stakeholders - members, staff, alums. This thread is a testament to the engagement of many on behalf of Pioneer. Perhaps Roman gets more consideration in decisions by virtue of his significant investment over time. That doesn't justify process or outcome in which other invested voices are ignored.

HH

[audiodb]

Now, to answer your question, I do wonder whether this ought to be more like the English soccer leagues where the best in one tier are promoted to the next tier and the worst are relegated to the tier below.

That is a fun system, isn't it? I don't see it being practical in the current drum corps activity, though, unless the financial transition between the classes can be smoothed out.

I don't know the mid-90s history here. Whatever happenned then is less relevant than what's best for now. Is Pioneer's mission best served when can't compete successfully? I have my doubts whether it is.

Well, my point is that people in this thread speak as if Pioneer "can't compete" at the world-class level....and I don't think a 0.7 score deficit puts them in the "can't" range.

[drumguy50]

What an ironic question. The corps was demonized for wearing out their welcome in division II/III, particularly when the 1996 corps seemed like such an easy bet to take a third straight division II title. And now we question why they choose to compete in world-class?

Let me ask the reverse question. Anyone think that seven tenths of a point is enough of a deficit to justify moving to open-class, and competing against corps that (with rare exception) range from 20 to 70 members smaller than your corps?

I believe if you ask Roman he will tell you that moving to World class or what ever it was called then was 90% financial. When they did move they were quite competative making Semi finals. Unfortunately I think you will find Roman did what he does best then with finances etc and di not do the day to day and most of the staff related items then as he does now since DCM went down.

[KillerLeft]

I believe if you ask Roman he will tell you that moving to World class or what ever it was called then was 90% financial. When they did move they were quite competative making Semi finals. Unfortunately I think you will find Roman did what he does best then with finances etc and di not do the day to day and most of the staff related items then as he does now since DCM went down.

This. I don't know who this guy is, but he's obviously been around the organization in some capacity. This is the EXACT root of the problem...if you're in the camp that Pioneer has a "problem", that is.

[BozzlyB]

That is a fun system, isn't it? I don't see it being practical in the current drum corps activity, though, unless the financial transition between the classes can be smoothed out.

Well, my point is that people in this thread speak as if Pioneer "can't compete" at the world-class level....and I don't think a 0.7 score deficit puts them in the "can't" range.

Last several years in a row is not being competitive in any way shape or form regardless of the spread.

[BozzlyB]

I believe if you ask Roman he will tell you that moving to World class or what ever it was called then was 90% financial. When they did move they were quite competative making Semi finals. Unfortunately I think you will find Roman did what he does best then with finances etc and di not do the day to day and most of the staff related items then as he does now since DCM went down.

Makes a lot of sense, when DCM was around he had many other responsibilities that he doesn't have now, which would have left a lot of the decision making and design to those hired to actually do it.

[KeithHall]

They lost the BEST person for that corps and there ain't NO ONE to replace him. They must have really ticked the staff off good.

[dhawtho1]

They lost the BEST person for that corps and there ain't NO ONE to replace him. They must have really ticked the staff off good.

Keith,

I will admit their caption head and arranger is very good at what he does. I don't believe that your statement is correct. There are many talented teachers that can teach and arrange in this activity. To say that NO ONE can replace him is false. Everyone can be replaced.

The one thing that must have been difficult for him must have been the burden of recruiting. Typically horn players do not travel with their instructors. You'll find percussion guys have a way with brining their students along with them. That generally doesn't happen with horn instructors. Horn players go where they like the music. If you hate playing classical music, you won't go to Phantom. I don't care who the instructor is. I went where I could play jazz. For me the closest and most feasible option at the time was Crossmen. I had no idea who the instructors were, nor did I care. I just wanted to be there.

I would think that recruiting for a corps in Wisconsin must have been a huge obstacle, even for the strongest teachers. Especially when they are from a great distance. Possibly what may be best for that corps is some educator who knows the activity, knows Wisconsin and can actively recruit from a closer perimeter.

This by no means is a comment against their former arranger and instructor. I am well aware of how talented he is. The distance factor ALONE could have tired out even the strongest recruiters. I am sure there are other issues that are none of our business.