Pioneer

[HockeyDad]

YES!!!

I can tell you without any research that not everybody that marches drum corps is Christian, let alone Catholic. And even for the ones who are, religion in drum corps is a HUGE turn-off. This approach might work for an all-age or senior corps, but the fact is that many kids, especially in the high school/college age range, want nothing to do with religion. (I'm not saying all, I marched with a devout Catholic though he never minded that he couldn't go to church on tour.)

It's not just about having more time to practice, I GUARANTEE that the moment Pioneer loses the church requirement they will have the highest numbers they've ever had, regardless of their scores.

And I suppose you consider yourself to be "inclusive"

[Jeff Ream]

the plan works both ways: for the success of the corps, and for all of the alum that push the pioneer brand on their bios, that have pushed to virtual heartbreak for a long time now.

As far as 96, without DCI punishing the corps during the last week, we were a 14th place corps and a three time repeat div 2 winner.. check your summer long recaps, and the percussion program besides winning div 2, were knocking with a heavy hand on top 12 status that year. Yes we were that good, and that's been history for 14 years.

as far as my "bowling league mentality comment," that was not meant directly to the current staff, but rather to say our staff in 96 didn't posses that, and that's why we were that good.

no offense, but DCI did not punish the corps in 96.

[Kansan]

Then you must not been around for 1995 or the early shows of this decade. This year's show, not a glimmer of those productions.

Your correct, I didn't follow Drum Corps in the 90's that much save the local show. I was real busy developing a career path from 91 to 95.

I liked the show this year and as they improved, their score would go down which made no sense and kind of eminded me of my experience marching Sky Ryders in '85 when the Judges said they couldn't understand the Wizard of OZ show and kept holding us back score wise.

[PioneerWebmaster]

no offense, but DCI did not punish the corps in 96.

While I agree that DCI did not punish the corps, the way that the season ended still leaves many who marched that season with an odd sense of the unreal. I still to this day find Les Etoiles' come back to be nothing short of amazing. If Nite Express had beaten us, it would have been a little easier pill to swallow because they were only a couple points behind us most of the season and we had a hard fought battle with them all season. Les Etoiles was never even close to us right up to the last time we saw them the week before finals. To close and surpass 6+ point spread in less than a week is pretty much unheard of in the era of modern drum corps judging. It would have been the equivalent of Santa Clara, Blue Stars, or even Boston Crusaders coming from approximately 6 points back with only a week left this season to pass the Blue Devils for the title. It's not going to happen... This isn't football where any given team can win on any given Sunday.

Edited September 20, 2010 by PioneerWebmaster

[BigHoosierMack]

\

Biggest immediate problem is the percussion program lost ALL the fire it had, like a decade ago??

Seriously, just checkin' in here, but did you just say "Adam Hill doesn't have any of the fire that we had in '96"? Have you ever even met the guy? You're obviously one of those age-outs who never returns or you would know that guy has devoted his LIFE to that corps for WAY TOO LONG. Marched there even after being offered spots at every other corps in the region, after being harassed about it by colleagues, friends, professors, people who sounded like you do now. Only difference is as I've grown up, I realized he was already there, and already knew what was actually important. He's one of the most tallented, sincere, classy human beings on this planet, and your post just shows that you're not even in the same league with him. I'll take Adam and his staff over anyone who marched '96.

Now, you wanna talk visual design, I'll just reserve my seat on your bandwagon because Roman's lost on that one, but your Percussion insights lack...well...insight.

~Michael

[BozzlyB]

While I agree that DCI did not punish the corps, the way that the season ended still leaves many who marched that season with an odd sense of the unreal. I still to this day find Les Etoiles' come back to be nothing short of amazing. If Nite Express had beaten us, it would have been a little easier pill to swallow because they were only a couple points behind us most of the season and we had a hard fought battle with them all season. Les Etoiles was never even close to us right up to the last time we saw them the week before finals. To close and surpass 6+ point spread in less than a week is pretty much unheard of in the era of modern drum corps judging. It would have been the equivalent of Santa Clara, Blue Stars, or even Boston Crusaders coming from approximately 6 points back with only a week left this season to pass the Blue Devils for the title. It's not going to happen... This isn't football where any given team can win on any given Sunday.

I gotta be honest, of that had happened to my corps I would not have bought it either. To consider it in the perspective that you put it in there does make it seem pretty impossible. I will say that the impression in the mid 90's was that Pio was unbeatable in Div II, so given that they were coming off of two back to back championships they may have just been getting the benefit of the doubt from a score standpoint, not uncomon even these days to see some corps overscored based on last years results, sometime it just takes a while for the competition to catch up with the reputation if you get what I'm saying. Maybe, maybe not, just a thought.

[audiodb]

The same '96 Pioneer corps that I observed going through the motions on finals night and getting beat, fair-and-square, by a feisty little corps from Quebec with more drive, determination, passion, and innovation?

Pioneer wasn't going to win that year just based on thier size. Pioneer carried over a lot of talent, and corps size, going into the '97 and '98 seasons and what did they do with that talent? A watered down Riverdance production and an ultra-cheesy, blat heavy, Irish In Your Face program the following year.

Excuse me for nitpicking, but I must object to your comment regarding 1996. From my observations, the performance Pioneer delivered in division II finals was most assuredly not just "going through the motions". They had a very narrow 0.2 lead in prelims, and knew they couldn't rest on those laurels.

...and all this mumbo-jumbo about Pioneer getting screwed up the jaxie in '96 and being forced into Division I?

That's just hilarious! Pioneer totally had the talent and the size to move up; as usual, it was poor programming that did them in.

Again, I disagree with you regarding 1996, on several levels.

Let's take a trip down memory lane. As I recall, Pioneer had an unusual thing happen in the spring of '96. As we all know, people tend to drop out due to financial events, summer school, burnout, and so on. A lot of this attrition hits in May. Pioneer, like any other division II/III corps, was not immune to this effect. But in 1996, by some fluke, hardly anyone dropped out in the spring. Not only did that leave Pioneer with an unexpected increase in size over 1995....this stable membership had an edge in preparing for early season. As a result, they hit the field in impressive form, more befitting that of a division I unit. Furthermore, though they were safely seven points behind any finalist-caliber division I competitors, it appeared that they were leading the pack of non-finalist contenders and headed for the 14th spot overall. Sure enough, when everybody came together in the two-day Madison event in late July, Pioneer put up the 14th highest score.

There was a visceral negative reaction to Pioneer's strong corps being in division II from the instant they hit the field. Everyone I spoke to echoed the sentiment that they did not belong in division II....especially after having won the division in both 1994 and 1995, and earned the 18th spot among DCI quarterfinalists. Hardly anyone was aware that their off-season had been no different from 1995 until May, so much of this sentiment turned to resentment, with the presumption that Pioneer was staying in division II just to win an easy third-straight title. Whether that resentment spread to the DCI judging community cannot be proven....but please remember that judges are human beings too.

Here's what I do know. Etoiles came from seven points behind Pioneer at the start of August to 0.2 behind in division II prelims. Having seen them over that period, I can vouch for them improving quite a bit. Turning that 0.2 deficit around to a 0.2 win in division II finals is therefore plausible as well. But what happened in division I quarterfinals was, in my opinion, just plain wrong. There was no further miraculous gain on Etoiles' part, nor any failing on Pioneer's behalf, to explain how Etoiles suddenly beat Pioneer by five full points. Frankly, I thought Pioneer stepped it up enough to earn clear revenge over Etoiles, and that same 14th spot they had been occupying all season. Denying that was bad enough; missing semis was unthinkable; landing in a lower placement than the past two years was laughably inaccurate.

[Musicman1084]

You know, this conversation has veered so far away from the topic that it actually made me want to go research the 1996 season after all these claims of robbery. Here are my findings:

On the mentioned Madison preview weekend where Pioneer sat in 14th, the percussion score was a 6.9, tied for 15th. The top twelve score at that point in time was 7.7. By todays numbers, that would be 13.8 vs. 15.4. That's not quite so "heavy handed" in knocking on the top 12's door. I also didn't see any other evidence of them being all that close to a top 12 corps.

That weekend the corps did receive 14th place between the two days. However, keeping in mind it was over two days and this is the first time the corps went essentially head to head with all within their general score range, the spread between Pioneer and the next three corps was only .8, and between VK and Academy it was only 3 points. Given this, I don't think it's ENTIRELY unreasonable, given there were nearly three full weeks of the season left, that Pioneer would end up behind them. Only two corps beating them really stands out as a huge surprise to me: 1) The Troopers (Pioneer beat them by 7 points at one meeting late in the season) and 2) Les Etoiles (for reasons already mentioned). Kiwanis beating them is only a huge surprise in the sense that they popped a ridiculously high number.

I can understand talking up Pioneer's 1996 corps as being a travesty in placement if they had a SOLID grasp on 14th all season, but the fact is, they had minimal head to head meetings with the corps in their range, and of those, most of those matchups were VERY close.

Now while living in the past is great and all, wasn't the purpose of this thread to discuss Pioneer's current state? If there's nothing more to talk about, I'm not sure why this is still open?

[Michael Boo]

You know, this conversation has veered so far away from the topic...

...

Now while living in the past is great and all, wasn't the purpose of this thread to discuss Pioneer's current state? If there's nothing more to talk about, I'm not sure why this is still open?

I agree. Perhaps this thread should be closed with the moderator's request that a new one be open to stay on track with the original question as to what all can do for Pioneer's future success.

[BigHoosierMack]

I agree. Perhaps this thread should be closed with the moderator's request that a new one be open to stay on track with the original question as to what all can do for Pioneer's future success.

We can do that here, Mike!

What we can all do, is to continue to support them and accept them for who and what they are, and for what they stand for. We don't want cookie-cutter experiences for our students, and Pioneer is right for some people.

Keep on Keepin' on!!!

~Michael