What the fans want...2011

[MikeD]

argue the commentary. visual demands are all over the music shets...how often does a visual judge take musical demands into their weighting of things?

because commentary is skewed 65/35

How do you have ANY way of knowing that percentage?

As for your first comment...using the visual demand as it relates to the music being played is not a comment about the visual program. It is being used to talk about the individual demand placed on the musician performing the show.

[perc2100]

How do you have ANY way of knowing that percentage?

As for your first comment...using the visual demand as it relates to the music being played is not a comment about the visual program. It is being used to talk about the individual demand placed on the musician performing the show.

Right, it's about simultaneous demand: musicians being asked to do incredible feats while performing equally challenging musical performance. And even then, that's kind of "bonus points" as far as the music captions, and the commentary is focused more on what/how the musicians are playing while they're marching rather than vise-versa: especially when you take into account the more commonly mentioned aspect of music in concert with visual: listening environments due to staging.

[Jeff Ream]

the percentage i quote has come from DCI staffers and marching members that get to hear tapes. As well as from some of the tapes on that dfreaded site ( insert that site comment here)

and..on music tapes you'll hear "oh snares, that roll isnt quite there yet but I realize you're running there"

but on a visual tape do you hear "oh snares, you missed that form locking, but I realize you're trying to lock a fast roll there"

not on your life.

How do you have ANY way of knowing that percentage?

As for your first comment...using the visual demand as it relates to the music being played is not a comment about the visual program. It is being used to talk about the individual demand placed on the musician performing the show.

[Jeff Ream]

Right, it's about simultaneous demand: musicians being asked to do incredible feats while performing equally challenging musical performance. And even then, that's kind of "bonus points" as far as the music captions, and the commentary is focused more on what/how the musicians are playing while they're marching rather than vise-versa: especially when you take into account the more commonly mentioned aspect of music in concert with visual: listening environments due to staging.

except you only hear about the simultaneous demand on half of the sheets. the music half. it's notreciprocated on the visual side.

[Lance]

the percentage i quote has come from DCI staffers and marching members that get to hear tapes. As well as from some of the tapes on that dfreaded site ( insert that site comment here)

and..on music tapes you'll hear "oh snares, that roll isnt quite there yet but I realize you're running there"

but on a visual tape do you hear "oh snares, you missed that form locking, but I realize you're trying to lock a fast roll there"

not on your life.

it's really sad that it happens so much.

[Jeff Ream]

it's really sad that it happens so much.

I agree. Now..I do realize all visual people may not be musicians and may be down with all of the technical jargon for brass and percussion. But I would think to be judging at the DCI level, there's got to be some knowledge

[MikeD]

the percentage i quote has come from DCI staffers and marching members that get to hear tapes. As well as from some of the tapes on that dfreaded site ( insert that site comment here)

You really think they sat down and counted up the comments and than calculated a percentage? OK.

and..on music tapes you'll hear "oh snares, that roll isnt quite there yet but I realize you're running there"

but on a visual tape do you hear "oh snares, you missed that form locking, but I realize you're trying to lock a fast roll there"

not on your life.

Music judges have the ability to see and understand the movement demands placed on the players performance of the chart. I doubt most visual judges can say the same about the details of percussion performance (to use your example).

I cringe when some of the USSBA 'Overall Effect' judges who are primarily visual folks make the occasional and obligatory music comments, in lots of cases totally lame or even factually incorrect. A lot of them just don't have the music background to the level needed for such comments to be remotely helpful.

But your comment from the music judge makes my point exactly...the visual demands are being used as they relate to the music, which IMO is not only fine...it should happen consistently.

[perc2100]

the visual demand (comment)s are being used as they relate to the music, which IMO is not only fine...it should happen consistently.

I agree with this. I would argue that visual demands can greatly impact playing some musical phrases, but playing a music phrase doesn't not typically impact the execution of a visual phrase. Maybe that's just because I've been 'conditioned' to think that way based on criteria on sheets, judge training I've gone through for multiple circuits, teaching and performance experience, etc. Perhaps you could argue that a member is probably thinking more about music than visual during a performance, but if they blow a visual move because they're concentrating too much on a musical phrase, that's probably because it's early season and the member isn't comfortable with the show yet.

In my experience, there are far more visual judges with little/no musical expertise than music judges with little/no visual expertise. It's not uncommon to have a visual judge who is a color guar person, and REALLY knows what they're talking about when it comes to visual: yet when it comes to music they know almost nothing. Hearing those people make music comments would probably only enrage a music instructor.

[GUARDLING]

You really think they sat down and counted up the comments and than calculated a percentage? OK.

Music judges have the ability to see and understand the movement demands placed on the players performance of the chart. I doubt most visual judges can say the same about the details of percussion performance (to use your example).

I cringe when some of the USSBA 'Overall Effect' judges who are primarily visual folks make the occasional and obligatory music comments, in lots of cases totally lame or even factually incorrect. A lot of them just don't have the music background to the level needed for such comments to be remotely helpful.

But your comment from the music judge makes my point exactly...the visual demands are being used as they relate to the music, which IMO is not only fine...it should happen consistently.

Now this is interesting to me. I usually agree with many things you say BUT what makes you think a music judge can understand movement or demands of it. I'm not saying some can't but just because a music person has a music degree , marched in drum corps some decade or teach bands doesnt mean they understand movement at all IMO. I agree that also applies to some movement judges toward music Some crossed trained to understand at least the basics of both within training makes the best judges but also in my experience both sides of that coin ( music people verses visual people ) will fight till the end of time with what is more important or should hold more weight in a judged show.

[corpsband]

I agree with this. I would argue that visual demands can greatly impact playing some musical phrases, but playing a music phrase does not typically impact the execution of a visual phrase. Maybe that's just because I've been 'conditioned' to think that way based on criteria on sheets, judge training I've gone through for multiple circuits, teaching and performance experience, etc. Perhaps you could argue that a member is probably thinking more about music than visual during a performance, but if they blow a visual move because they're concentrating too much on a musical phrase, that's probably because it's early season and the member isn't comfortable with the show yet.

In my experience, there are far more visual judges with little/no musical expertise than music judges with little/no visual expertise. It's not uncommon to have a visual judge who is a color guar person, and REALLY knows what they're talking about when it comes to visual: yet when it comes to music they know almost nothing. Hearing those people make music comments would probably only enrage a music instructor.

I think you might be right here. The visual demands seem to impact music more than music demands impact visual. I lol'd at your bias vs. reality comment -- I had the same misgivings considering it.

IMO it's much easier to identify when visual is impacting the music than vice versa. The sheer physicality of those moments make them obvious. I think music does impact visual sometimes -- performer so focused on a challenging phrase that they forget their visual responsibilities -- but only the staff would successfully identify the visual break and it's root cause. A judge is probably not on such intimate terms with the program /performers to be able make that call. The visual judge sees a break. Might get a comment about sustaining focus through that moment (which is actually addressing the issue without be explicit about it).

As for being qualified / trained to make the call...I don't really think that's too much of a contributing factor. It's commentary that's clearly out-of-caption for both sides and as such there's no expectation or requirement for a highly precise feedback. In either direction it's just an acknowledgement of an increased level of simultaneous responsibilities and the performer's level of success in meeting the challenge.

Edited November 19, 2010 by corpsband