Mr. Sondheim says...

[Jeff Ream]

Agreed. Doing what people are familiar with isn't the best answer, though...or at least not the only answer. There are literally thousands of great pieces out there by composers most people aren't familiar with that can become instant classics in dci in the hands of a truly talented arranger. Those are exceedingly rare in dci now because so much emphasis is on visual.

[POSITIVenrgy]

Ironic that a composer/lyricist whose work is roundly dismissed by "regular people" for being too highbrow is being used in the effort to tell drum corps whose shows are dismissed by "regular people" as "too highbrow" that they need to become more populist.

Jerry Herman's shows have been more financially successful than Sondheim's. By that standard, Jerry Herman is "better" than Sondheim, since they require absolutely no mental effort, and any schlubb can get them. But anyone who actually cares about good work recognizes that Sondheim is operating on a completely different plane, and that his work will still be being produced decades from now whereas Herman's work felt dated even when it was new.

The lesson? That popular taste is sometimes a lousy indicator of overall worth.

[MikeD]

so anyone who hates boring drum corps is a dino? if that's the case, I know many people who will screw up that definition, because I have shows from the 70s 80s and 90s that bored me

'Boring' is just YOUR interpretation of a show. Personally, I find shows that trot out the 'same old thing' far more boring than a show that attempts something new, even if it misfires.

[MikeD]

and obviously, Chuck and myself are not alone. But hey, you can stay in denial, as long as you realize it's not just a river in Egypt and it isn't all about BD, because other corps bored people too.

Why do you say he is in 'denial'? Because his idea of boring and not-boring differs from yours?

It works the other way round as well. Plan9 could very well say the same about you, since plenty of people loved and enjoyed BD and others you call 'boring'.

It's personal opinion, which is fine. Just don't put down another person for holding a different one.

[Plan9]

Why do you say he is in 'denial'? Because his idea of boring and not-boring differs from yours?

It works the other way round as well. Plan9 could very well say the same about you, since plenty of people loved and enjoyed BD and others you call 'boring'.

It's personal opinion, which is fine. Just don't put down another person for holding a different one.

Yes! Yes! Yes! I almost gave up hope that no one understood. Thanks Mike!

I was beginning to think there was no room for another opinion inside of this "group hug" going on in here.

And yes, I would say that "some" on DCP feel the need to claim ownership of "the masses", then assign it a viewpoint and present it as exhibit "A" in their argument in such a way as to attempt to offset the outcome. It's simply another viewpoint and bears no more weight than any another viewpoint (particularly when it comes to migrating crowd response). And the use of the word "denial" is merely a weak attempt to verify an unsubstantiated point of view.

I take to heart Chuck's thoughtful (and well respected) viewpoint. But it isn't the whole story, just another story; and other music and visual designers certainly will see it differently, and ONLY differently. There's no right or wrong in art, only other. I'm certain Taylor Swift sells and connects to more audience than a jazz fusion pianist, but those "masses" that show up to the jazz performance love it with just as much passion....they only get to sit closer!

[jjeffeory]

Agreed. Doing what people are familiar with isn't the best answer, though...or at least not the only answer. There are literally thousands of great pieces out there by composers most people aren't familiar with that can become instant classics in dci in the hands of a truly talented arranger. Those are exceedingly rare in dci now because so much emphasis is on visual.

Exactly! Designers should not be afraid to try new works, however, not every new work should be done.... We must have quality works that work well in our medium.

[jjeffeory]

Yes! Yes! Yes! I almost gave up hope that no one understood. Thanks Mike!

I was beginning to think there was no room for another opinion inside of this "group hug" going on in here.

And yes, I would say that "some" on DCP feel the need to claim ownership of "the masses", then assign it a viewpoint and present it as exhibit "A" in their argument in such a way as to attempt to offset the outcome. It's simply another viewpoint and bears no more weight than any another viewpoint (particularly when it comes to migrating crowd response). And the use of the word "denial" is merely a weak attempt to verify an unsubstantiated point of view.

I take to heart Chuck's thoughtful (and well respected) viewpoint. But it isn't the whole story, just another story; and other music and visual designers certainly will see it differently, and ONLY differently. There's no right or wrong in art, only other. I'm certain Taylor Swift sells and connects to more audience than a jazz fusion pianist, but those "masses" that show up to the jazz performance love it with just as much passion....they only get to sit closer!

You can join the "group hug" too!

Your voice is welcomed on here as far as I'm concerned!

I just don't see this thread as a fight, I see it as a way to get more corps to think about more than simply using intellect, aesthetics, or emotion in their show designs. I want a perfect blend of all of these.

Art for arts sake is fine, but not always appreciated by the audience. Emotion for emotion's sake isn't always enough either.

Edited November 11, 2010 by jjeffeory

[corpsband]

I daresay that Star of Indiana would not have programmed "Medea" until they were ready. . . not just to survive it, but nail it. I daresay that the Madison Scouts will not be playing "Rhapsody in Blue" in 4 years. . . they will be ready for something else. The Cadets played old-school swing band music on their way to "The Mass" and Ron Nelson. The birthing process doesn't have to be alienating. Neither does the arrival point.

There were more standing ovations in the 70's and '80's. That's not selective memory. Am I saying program old-school drill, and have the guards wear boots, while the drums elevator up and down the 50? Of course not.

The audiences will let us know what they like -- with their hands, their screams, and their ticket-buying.

If, after this season, I'm proven wrong, I'll come right here and say it. But I'm betting the vast majority of the audience is ready for some fun, some melody and some connection in addition to high performance levels.

For me this is the crux of the issue. Despite all the ballyhoo about art and personal taste and denial and shifting paradigms -- this is an AUDIENCE-driven performance art. Show designers : ignore them at your peril. In the end the performers want the audience to love and appreciate them -- if that continually fails to happen all the spin in the world won't stop the inevitable.

[Hrothgar15]

Exactly! Designers should not be afraid to try new works, however, not every new work should be done.... We must have quality works that work well in our medium.

Exactly. There are literally thousands of orchestral works that haven't been played, hundreds of jazz charts, and dozens of quality movie scores (that licensing would allow) that are just begging to be transcribed for the medium.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Hrothgar15

[Jeff Ream]

'Boring' is just YOUR interpretation of a show. Personally, I find shows that trot out the 'same old thing' far more boring than a show that attempts something new, even if it misfires.

and guess what Mike..I have too. I got a lot of #### on here for not gushing over Cadets 03...but that show fills that bill to a tee.

but something new can often fail as well. it's all in how it's designed.