Mello Dude Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 My ears are trained just fine...how are yours??? You should learn to listen to what corps play and not just react to the existence of something because you don't like the idea of the it being a part of drum corps. Deflection from the fact the synth is used to double and replace Tuba parts. Nice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 ...As for the rest of your comment, you obviously haven't been reading my posts. (And why should you?) So let me note that I'm the fellow who wouldn't object to woodwinds -- as long as they couldn't be miked. I have no problem with Bb bugles, sedentary pits, or the non-presentation of colors. And I have always thought of drum corps as a subset of marching bands... I am genuinely sorry if I mistated or misunderstood your position (many voices here, I sometimes lose track). The general point I don't regret at all. The past has passed. We'll no sooner go back to G or all acoustic than we'll march the pit or require the color pre. Everyone is entitled to fond memories of the past. I hope those fond memories aren't taken as license to abuse drum corps today. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Musicians should be able to play an instrument in any key..that is if they are any good... Bb is in fact one of these "many keys." You want G to be a virtue and Bb to be a vice as if one is arbitray and the other isn't. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 I had a really hard time hearing Madison's 10 (!) contras with the synth doubling their line seemingly the whole show. It's what my ears heard. I don't think the synth was "making up for" a lack of sound, I think it was drowning it out, which is too bad. I'm quite sure the contra line would have been just fine without the synth. Exactly - it's not that hornlines are not loud enough. It's that synths may be utilized poorly by many corps. N.E. is trying to somehow claim that it must be a lacking of those hornlines when hornlines are clearly superior today and are producing volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Because it's easier to train an entire line of musicians on Bb, and it's cheaper, and EVERY SINGLE ANSWER THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP BEFORE! It's a venue issue, not an instrumentation issue. Musicians should be able to play an instrument in any key..that is if they are any good. Trumpet players especially as you are pretty much required to play in a ton of keys for your major. Actually, it's really not cheaper, easier possibly, but not cheaper..and this has been brought up before as another myth busted. Well, if it isn't an instrument issue (which science, my Db meter, and plainly good hearing can dictate G's were louder and carry better)..and I highly doubt venue issue, then are you claiming that the musicians on the field can't do the job? Or is their another excuse that we are missing here? BTW, pretty rude to use a shutup icon in a forum...just saying. I don't think in my 10 years marching corps (and we had MANY more shows back then) I ever heard we had an issue being heard or hearing ourselves play. My ears are trained just fine...how are yours??? You should learn to listen to what corps play and not just react to the existence of something because you don't like the idea of the it being a part of drum corps. Wow. Really dude? Sounds like something Mark Madden (for all you Pittsburgh people) would say if you called in to ask about Drum Corps. What does playing music in many keys on a trumpet have to do with this? Hardly. Some have made assertions without proof, that's all. No excuse needed. You really have trouble hearing horn lines? I hear them just fine, be they G or multi-key. BTW...it's pretty rude to make personal comments about another poster in this forum...or the marching members...just saying. Uh, what? So you're saying that any of us who can't play in multiple keys aren't that good of musicians? Really now? Let's see, 10 years of trombone and bass trombone, need to transpose to another key=0. Not everyone has to do it. Just a simple fact of musicians. And the Bbs being cheaper was actually proven, as most of the brass companies provide corps with massive discounts and deals, which the G bugle producing companies can't compete with. It's a venue issue, stop trying to make it into something else. Trust me, I've had finals in both outdoor and indoor venues in the last 4 years, and trust me, there is a marked difference between having finals at Bloomington and in Indy. And we had something in the vicinity of 30 shows in each of the last three years, so if you had more, how did you find time for them? Here's a challenge, how about you go out in Lucas Oil with a horn, and attempt to play a show, and then tell me if it isn't a challenging experience to hear the people around you or even yourself. And about the icon thing, your sig picture is the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil picture, so do you really have a place to call people out for that? Thanks for backing me up Mike. Glad you understand where I'm coming from with this stuff. When it comes down to it, I'm the one here who has performed in Lucas Oil, I've marched Finals there, so until some of these other guys have done the same, I'm really just not sure if they have a place arguing against synths and amps not being a venue issue until they've tried it themselves. Just saying Just wow. FYI, many times in many threads MikeD had claimed the synths were not doubling Tuba parts. MikeD now claims to be able to hear out on the fringes perfectly yet can't hear the obvious that INDEED the synths are doubling Tuba parts...quite often (see Unison). These claims are made often (look at MikeD's post count sometime, that many here take his word as the gospell truth vs reality), in fact so often that many take this as fact vs just hearing something repeated ad nauseum and repeating it. FYI: ad naseum: This Latin phrase comes from a term in logic, the argumentum ad nauseam, in which debaters wear out the opposition by just repeating arguments until they get sick of the whole thing and give in. Not quite sure I made a personal attack vs an observation, if taken as a personal attack I apologize for it. As for attacking someones position or basis for reality on something, that is different. I also have never told someone to shut up and a forum that is dedicated to discussion. My sig applies to this ever so well regarding this very issue. Brass Prices: Bugle Prices Multi Key Brass But, regardless, I am not here to be a pain so I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Bb is in fact one of these "many keys." You want G to be a virtue and Bb to be a vice as if one is arbitray and the other isn't. HH No, I want those that espouse that Bb carries as well as G to back it up with FACT. I have conducted my own study using a Db meter..have you? I didn't say "G" was the only key, I simply stated that a good musician should rather easily move to another key with relative ease. God knows, like I have said before, trumpet players especially, having to play C, D, Bb, Eb should have very few issues with it. Saying that it's EASIER to play Bb vs another key (G in this case) simply flies in the face of facts and realities. Is there a transition to learn..yes, is it harder than learning any of the other keys...absolutely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 ...Brass Prices: Bugle Prices Multi Key Brass... Please stop this. There is no economic basis for the the claim that G is cheaper than Bb, certainly not two links to two sets of prices among many. Drum corps, no matter the key, is not an exception to the laws of supply and demand. Prices rise when demand is high and supply is low. The limited market for G makes supply low. In the Bb case, supply is greater (demand is the same), hence lower prices. The improved circumstance for the used-horn market only make the case more compelling. This post proves at best you can find bargains here and there from time to time. The same would be true for Bb, no doubt. What you'll never find is a economically supportable case for limiting your instrumentation choices to a subset of the market exclusive to you. It's the drum corps equivalent of having your wife not just state she only wants one car model but stating such to the car salesman. Yes, I overpaid. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 And the difference between G and Bb on todays horns is what..... length of lead pipe? IMO, it's style of instruction and playing that accounts for the volume difference over the years. I've heard loud hits in DCA on both G and Bb and lower volumes on G and Bb. Difference was the playing and not the key..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 (edited) No, I want those that espouse that Bb carries as well as G to back it up with FACT. I have conducted my own study using a Db meter..have you? I didn't say "G" was the only key, I simply stated that a good musician should rather easily move to another key with relative ease. God knows, like I have said before, trumpet players especially, having to play C, D, Bb, Eb should have very few issues with it. Saying that it's EASIER to play Bb vs another key (G in this case) simply flies in the face of facts and realities. Is there a transition to learn..yes, is it harder than learning any of the other keys...absolutely not. Have I used a Db meter? Nope. Didn't have to. My ears were enough. I've heard many drums corps in both Bb and G over several decades. I never once thought drum corps overall weren't loud enough. Individual corps at individual moments? Sure. Overall? Just right in G and in Bb. I like to think of myself as having a pretty fair ear. Yet I can say in all honesty I don't know if I could tell the difference between say the G BD of 1999 and the Bb BD of 2009 if they were playing the same tune. Both sounded great to me. I don't need a Db meter or any other equipment to feel satisfication from both. The "science" of G that I've seen rendered on DCP hasn't been science and surely isn't fact. Even if it were, I'm dubious that science can be applied accross the dozens of players who make each drum corps' sound. That's the other part of the Bb switch that many misunderstand. It's not so much that individual players can't switch keys successfully. It's that teaching everyone in Bb takes one variable out of the equation, making the teaching process more efficient. Again, this isn't an individual consideration. It's a choice made to benefit the group. And benefitting the group - instruction or finances - makes sense. HH Edited December 25, 2010 by glory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Please stop this. There is no economic basis for the the claim that G is cheaper than Bb, certainly not two links to two sets of prices among many. Drum corps, no matter the key, is not an exception to the laws of supply and demand. Prices rise when demand is high and supply is low. The limited market for G makes supply low. In the Bb case, supply is greater (demand is the same), hence lower prices. The improved circumstance for the used-horn market only make the case more compelling. This post proves at best you can find bargains here and there from time to time. The same would be true for Bb, no doubt. What you'll never find is a economically supportable case for limiting your instrumentation choices to a subset of the market exclusive to you. It's the drum corps equivalent of having your wife not just state she only wants one car model but stating such to the car salesman. Yes, I overpaid. HH I didn't bring up economics. I simply brought facts and data to the table. Please, feel free to bring both on your next post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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