Amplification/Electronics: 2011 Season

[Hrothgar15]

If your collection extends prior to amplification at all, you should at least have the 2003 finals recordings. So to start, take a corps from that show (Bluecoats, for example) and tell me what you observe in '03 vs. '04.

I think Bluecoats were unamped in 2004. (Were they the last Top 12 corps to plug in?)

Edited January 1, 2011 by Hrothgar15

[audiodb]

Wait, are you saying amps distort the timbre of the instruments? That's odd, that seems counter-productive to what everyone was trying to accomplish when they started using amplification.

Yes, it does. But do you honestly expect to get a balanced sound by sticking two mics under the tubes of a marimba? Never mind all the factors I pointed out in my previous post....that mic strategy, employed by numerous corps, injects yet another proximity-effect-induced coloration of the sound, emphasizing the nearest resonators while neglecting the more distant ones.

No matter how much the pit folks want this, I'd be surprised if they're willing to contend that amps don't alter the sound. That is an indefensible claim.

I also wouldn't call it a cop-out, and I bet the thousand-or-so pit members that have performed since 2004 (including myself) wouldn't respond to that claim too warmly.

Try not to take my comment too far out of context. I said that the contention that pits had to bang their instruments senselessly just to be heard at all (implying that amps were necessary for pits to be heard at all) was a cop-out.

My pit tech in 2008 was in Phantom '03 and '04 and I recall him talking about how dangerous it was to do that. And this was still when four or five marimbas were playing the same thing, they couldn't be heard with anything but a (leaning on dangerous) technique. There's enough carpal tunnel, and tendonitis in pits now, even with the inclusion of amps.

Not to be insensitive (I have my fair share of tendonitis), but any position in drum corps carries a particular risk of repetitive stress injury. Amplification will not make that go away.

Besides, you could not have had many of the moments that we've had since 2004 without amps. Imagine Crown's ballad in 2008 without amps, there's no way that you would have been able to hear the solo vibraphone with much clarity, especially in large stadiums like Indiana University's that year. You also wouldn't have been able to achieve the same tone quality with any other instrument utilized in drum corps. I would consider their show one of the more memorable of the decade, and without an amp, that moment wouldn't have worked.

Glad you enjoyed it. For every one of those, there are five other corps drowning out every bar of their ballad brass work in a sea of amplified pit sound, as if even a momentary tacit from any of their ten 4-mallet-wielding keyboardists would risk disqualification.

The entire summer is spent trying to balance the pit volume with brass. And, at least in my experience, the staff takes audience size in to consideration - bigger stadium, more volume - better balance up near the box. That's why they've recently incorporated the rule that the staff member running the soundboard could be on the phone with someone in the audience, because they wanted to find the best balance in the shortest amount of time possible. Besides, when have you ever gone to a show and said "ooh, let's sit closer to the sideline, it's better down there?"

Quite often....especially in stadiums with elevated seating areas like LOS, or Denver, or DeKalb, or Allentown, or innumerable others, where even the front row provides some opportunity to view drill. Might not be your cup of tea, but some of us like to sit up close and bask in the sound.

One of my most memorable experiences was traveling to Montreal in '82 with HS friends, and seeing prelims from row 1 on the 50. I believe it was worth the trip for Phantom Regiment's opening impact all by itself.

[acolli17]

Yes, it does. But do you honestly expect to get a balanced sound by sticking two mics under the tubes of a marimba? Never mind all the factors I pointed out in my previous post....that mic strategy, employed by numerous corps, injects yet another proximity-effect-induced coloration of the sound, emphasizing the nearest resonators while neglecting the more distant ones.

No matter how much the pit folks want this, I'd be surprised if they're willing to contend that amps don't alter the sound. That is an indefensible claim.

Try not to take my comment too far out of context. I said that the contention that pits had to bang their instruments senselessly just to be heard at all (implying that amps were necessary for pits to be heard at all) was a cop-out.

Not to be insensitive (I have my fair share of tendonitis), but any position in drum corps carries a particular risk of repetitive stress injury. Amplification will not make that go away.

Glad you enjoyed it. For every one of those, there are five other corps drowning out every bar of their ballad brass work in a sea of amplified pit sound, as if even a momentary tacit from any of their ten 4-mallet-wielding keyboardists would risk disqualification.

Quite often....especially in stadiums with elevated seating areas like LOS, or Denver, or DeKalb, or Allentown, or innumerable others, where even the front row provides some opportunity to view drill. Might not be your cup of tea, but some of us like to sit up close and bask in the sound.

One of my most memorable experiences was traveling to Montreal in '82 with HS friends, and seeing prelims from row 1 on the 50. I believe it was worth the trip for Phantom Regiment's opening impact all by itself.

I won't argue your indefensible claim. What I will argue though is that every corps in DCI believes that the negatives of having no amps far outweigh the negatives of having an amp'd pit (and yes I do mean every corps. Unless some group is still going without mics).

This also applies to next comment you had about the cop-out. I assume that the staff's of each corps found that it was more advantageous to have a slightly distorted sound (so slightly distorted that I wager that no more than five or ten people at any given show - other than volume from sitting too close - would complain that the sound was distorted) than have their members "bang their instruments senselessly"

I would also wager that amplification can greatly reduce the risk of injury. Just as marching shoes have improved, and drum carriers have improved, the use of amplification allows for an alteration in technique that allows the player to play with a more concert-esque, injury-friendly technique.

"As if even a momentary tacit from any of their ten 4-mallet-wielding keyboardists would risk disqualification." - It just seems apparent to me that you're simply not a fan of the pit. Sorry if that is a gross misunderstanding

And obviously this is my opinion, as is most of what we are both saying, but I find that even without the pit "blaring" at me from the front several rows, sitting in front doesn't give me quite the same effect as when I'm sitting higher up. Given that every member is told to "point their bells to the box", I find that I get a better, more balanced sound sitting higher up, and that includes even when the pit is playing. Of course, this is what I guess one could consider "my cup of tea."

[Mello Dude]

I won't argue your indefensible claim. What I will argue though is that every corps in DCI believes that the negatives of having no amps far outweigh the negatives of having an amp'd pit (and yes I do mean every corps. Unless some group is still going without mics).

This also applies to next comment you had about the cop-out. I assume that the staff's of each corps found that it was more advantageous to have a slightly distorted sound (so slightly distorted that I wager that no more than five or ten people at any given show - other than volume from sitting too close - would complain that the sound was distorted) than have their members "bang their instruments senselessly"

I would also wager that amplification can greatly reduce the risk of injury. Just as marching shoes have improved, and drum carriers have improved, the use of amplification allows for an alteration in technique that allows the player to play with a more concert-esque, injury-friendly technique.

"As if even a momentary tacit from any of their ten 4-mallet-wielding keyboardists would risk disqualification." - It just seems apparent to me that you're simply not a fan of the pit. Sorry if that is a gross misunderstanding

And obviously this is my opinion, as is most of what we are both saying, but I find that even without the pit "blaring" at me from the front several rows, sitting in front doesn't give me quite the same effect as when I'm sitting higher up. Given that every member is told to "point their bells to the box", I find that I get a better, more balanced sound sitting higher up, and that includes even when the pit is playing. Of course, this is what I guess one could consider "my cup of tea."

Every corps in DCI has no choice than to have amps. Those that don't appear to play the game...lose. Those that aren't seeming pushing the activity to something else..lose.

Quite honestly, the pits are too loud. It should considered accompaniment, for most of the show. Finger cymbals should not be killing your ear drums. It's sounds un-natural to say the least. I would also like to ask about "proper technique". I would assume that outdoor playing vs indoor require different "technique" than indoors..right?

Injury free technique? Hmm, I suppose the horns and drums should stop running, marching and playing then?

Quite honestly, the only reason I hated the pit in corps (when I marched) was helping haul all their crap to the field and back every day. :) I think and un-amped pit is completely able to be heard. I NEVER had a problem hearing them..and that's when horn lines were loud.

[charlie1223]

Good grief....are you serious? All microphones distort the sound to some degree. (Wow, would my job be easier if they didn't!)

Manufacturers of decent microphones will provide graphs that plot the mic's response as a function of frequency, and directional response. All microphones "color" the sound as a result of emphasizing or de-emphasizing certain frequencies....and the different ways in which they do that depending on where the sound is coming from.

Now, the mics are usually nowhere near the weakest link in the chain. Don't get me started on the speakers (although I think I already discussed them earlier here, probably in this thread).

That could take awhile. I don't know what recordings you have, or what kind of system you have for playback.

If your collection extends prior to amplification at all, you should at least have the 2003 finals recordings. So to start, take a corps from that show (Bluecoats, for example) and tell me what you observe in '03 vs. '04.

....in your opinion. And I don't expect you'll be changing that opinion. Just try to realize that yours is not the only opinion....nor the only vantage point from which to hear these things.

Yes....and I'd like to hear it without the coloration of mics, or the resonant/node frequencies and directional effects of speakers, or the buzz/hum/pop of dirty connections or improper electrical grounding.

No, it won't ever be resolved as long as ensemble balance is assessed from the press box. As I think you are aware, different sounds project in different ways. What sounds "balanced" at the most distant viewing point will not have nearly that same balance from row 15 of the lower deck.

*I agree that the whole speaker distortion is much worse of a problem then the microphones.

*I will take a look at Blue Coats '03 vs. '04. I'll let you know. I don't believe my opinions are set in stone, but always try to be the most reasonable based on evidence and experiences I have at the time.

*For you, you probably appreciate the "tingy" "belly" sound that I don't like. I just like full bodied front ensemble sound. So I'd say the quality of sound is better (yes imo) and that's really something I don't think I'd change my mind on, sorry. lol.

*The way I feel about mics is that I wish we didn't need them, but at the same time I know that we do (imo) so that we can hear all the nuances of the pit from far away and mixed with battery and brass. But my approach is for corps to invest more time and money in making sure that amps, speakers, electronics are always working perfectly. If corps are going to go this route they better do right, of course.

*Oh for sure balances are going to be different everywhere and to everyone. So, in a big stadium who do you balance to? The judges? The first row? the middle row? the nose bleeds? Corps had these issues even before amps.

Edited January 2, 2011 by charlie1223

[Hrothgar15]

*I will take a look at Blue Coats '03 vs. '04. I'll let you know.

I'm pretty sure those are both unamped (correct me if I'm wrong). Try doing '04 vs. '05.

[charlie1223]

Every corps in DCI has no choice than to have amps. Those that don't appear to play the game...lose. Those that aren't seeming pushing the activity to something else..lose.

Are they really losing cuz of that or is it because they just can't drum, play and catch as good as the other guy? I don't think you can prove this...

Quite honestly, the pits are too loud. It should considered accompaniment, for most of the show. Finger cymbals should not be killing your ear drums. It's sounds un-natural to say the least.

I'm not saying pits are the perfect volume all around. But its a bit of an exaggeration to say "pits are too loud". But I disagree that a pit should only be accompaniment. They have been in the activity long enough that all four section (brass, guard, pit, and battery) all deserve the spotlight at some point in the show. It's only fair for the kids performing in all those sections and make the show more enjoyable (at least for me).

I would also like to ask about "proper technique". I would assume that outdoor playing vs indoor require different "technique" than indoors..right?

There are more similarities than differences. The Cavaliers use a technique called "back fulcrum" for their two mallet playing. Without getting into too detail this technique was basically created for outdoor playing. There is a lot of power in this stroke which makes it basically pointless for "indoor" or concert playing.

However, most corps use indoor concert techniques for playing in front ensembles nowadays. For four mallets usually Stevens or Burton and for two mallets "front fulcrum" or a combination of both "back" and "front fulcrum". so in general there are more similarities.

Injury free technique? Hmm, I suppose the horns and drums should stop running, marching and playing then?

Actually... the point of good technique is to NOT get injured. The marching technique that's used is to provide individuals with the necessary tools to complete an objective in the most effecient way possible. So the point of technique is to be "injury" free... Often people get hurt because they stray away from the techniques provided to them to avoid injury (this includes the stretching before hand and what not)

In the pit, the techniques allow for as much free range of motion and technical ability while staying in control and not hurting themselves. If they are able to produce the same results without the risks then why shouldn't they? (not saying amps are the answer to all pit's problems! lol)

Quite honestly, the only reason I hated the pit in corps (when I marched) was helping haul all their crap to the field and back every day. :) I think and un-amped pit is completely able to be heard. I NEVER had a problem hearing them..and that's when horn lines were loud.

I think it isn't so much that you can't "hear" them. With out amps I could also "hear" them. But can I "understand" them? If there are 20 people all talking at the same time I can hear them talking but I wouldn't be able to understand them. With the pit being a huge aspect of the judged score, the corps and judges want to make sure that the pit is not only being "heard" but also understood. How clean are those runs? Are those attacks together? How's the balance? The amps also give judges a microscope in which to judge the pit and offer the audience clarity with an equal ensemble voice that is supposed to work with the battery and horn line to create music and NOT dominate the show.

[charlie1223]

I'm pretty sure those are both unamped (correct me if I'm wrong). Try doing '04 vs. '05.

I'll just try to spot the speakers!

[charlie1223]

It's funny this topic has managed to touch on every controversy in DCI! Except for woodwinds... but I imagine that's right around the corner for this thread!

[Michael Boo]

*I will take a look at Blue Coats '03 vs. '04.

Ten-yard penalty for spelling the corps' name as two words.

This is my personal pet peeve and I'm sticking with it.

Everyone, please...If you don't want my wrath to descend from the heavens and smite vast portions of the known universe, spell "Bluecoats" as ONE word.

We now return you to our previously-scheduled program.