Amplification/Electronics: 2011 Season

[acolli17]

I do apologize for the misleading in my post. I regrettably admit that it was quite the long winded way for me to say this:

If it works, then I have no problem with it. I don't think we should assume the implementation of vocals/singing will be bad until we hear it.

Once again I apologize for the confusion.

[fsubone]

And that 15 seconds could fall into the pre-show.

Indeed it could, in which case it would have no impact at all on their competitive show or score, so all of this arguing is pointless right......?

[N.E. Brigand]

The idea and challenge is to create a highly entertaining show of marching/music for the members and fans. The 'intended media' is marching, music and guard on a football field.

I think this is the fundamental difference between the various positions being espoused in this discussion. For me, your definition is inadequate, because I feel that the 'intended media' must also be acoustic. Others would disagree with either you or me, or both of us, in stipulating that the 'intended media' must not include woodwinds or strings.

[audiodb]

BTW they don't amp the pit just for volumes sake but also for quality of sound sake. The instruments used in the pit Do not carry period with out mics when a horn line is blaring.

Do you only watch shows from the press box?

The only way that you would be able to hear the pit over any horn line (Xflat) you would have to distort the timbre of these instruments and when you do that it sounds pretty harsh...

Funny - that's precisely what the amps do.

Just listen to any recording pre- pit mic days. The sounds of the pit were very harsh and "bell-y".

Now that's not even true. Pit sounds pre-2004 ran the gamut of tonalities, and the recordings are the best place to find proof of that due to the advantage most pits enjoy in proximity to the recording mics.

Now, we can get lush marimba sounds, more appreciable vibe and bell sounds, soft cymbal timbres, and intricate trap instruments which add new colorful percussive sounds to drum corps (whether you want it or not).

We had all those things before.

Also, mic-ing the pit also has a great deal to do with technique. Not that you can't play loud with good technique, but that more advanced playing can only be achieved if the main goal is to create music and not to bang the #### out of the keyboards just to be noticed.

This is simply a cop-out.

It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along).

Your post shows the press-box mentality that was applied in invoking this change. Because certain subtleties could not be easily heard upstairs, they had to be electronically amplified. Well, guess what? There are many subtleties that can't be easily heard upstairs. Sound clarity deteriorates over distance for a variety of reasons. But never mind that....so that GE judges can hear a single Udu drum, or every one of the 40 mallets, we amplify the pit and in the process submerge all the brass subtleties for the vast majority of the audience - those who are not in the nosebleed seats.

[acolli17]

Do you only watch shows from the press box?

Funny - that's precisely what the amps do.

Now that's not even true. Pit sounds pre-2004 ran the gamut of tonalities, and the recordings are the best place to find proof of that due to the advantage most pits enjoy in proximity to the recording mics.

We had all those things before.

This is simply a cop-out.

It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along).

Your post shows the press-box mentality that was applied in invoking this change. Because certain subtleties could not be easily heard upstairs, they had to be electronically amplified. Well, guess what? There are many subtleties that can't be easily heard upstairs. Sound clarity deteriorates over distance for a variety of reasons. But never mind that....so that GE judges can hear a single Udu drum, or every one of the 40 mallets, we amplify the pit and in the process submerge all the brass subtleties for the vast majority of the audience - those who are not in the nosebleed seats.

Wait, are you saying amps distort the timbre of the instruments? That's odd, that seems counter-productive to what everyone was trying to accomplish when they started using amplification. I also wouldn't call it a cop-out, and I bet the thousand-or-so pit members that have performed since 2004 (including myself) wouldn't respond to that claim too warmly. My pit tech in 2008 was in Phantom '03 and '04 and I recall him talking about how dangerous it was to do that. And this was still when four or five marimbas were playing the same thing, they couldn't be heard with anything but a (leaning on dangerous) technique. There's enough carpal tunnel, and tendonitis in pits now, even with the inclusion of amps.

Besides, you could not have had many of the moments that we've had since 2004 without amps. Imagine Crown's ballad in 2008 without amps, there's no way that you would have been able to hear the solo vibraphone with much clarity, especially in large stadiums like Indiana University's that year. You also wouldn't have been able to achieve the same tone quality with any other instrument utilized in drum corps. I would consider their show one of the more memorable of the decade, and without an amp, that moment wouldn't have worked.

The entire summer is spent trying to balance the pit volume with brass. And, at least in my experience, the staff takes audience size in to consideration - bigger stadium, more volume - better balance up near the box. That's why they've recently incorporated the rule that the staff member running the soundboard could be on the phone with someone in the audience, because they wanted to find the best balance in the shortest amount of time possible. Besides, when have you ever gone to a show and said "ooh, let's sit closer to the sideline, it's better down there?"

[charlie1223]

Do you only watch shows from the press box?

I actually teach a high school front ensemble and I always struggle to have all the various colors of the pit show when the rest of the band is playing even from a "normal" viewing distance.

So, no I do not watch shows from the press box but it is indeed true that in order to hear the pit at a good volume without mics you would have to stand fairly close to them.

I appreciate the sounds the pit create from the distance I watch shows.

Funny - that's precisely what the amps do.

This is false. Many bands, professional performers in all mediums use microphones to amplify themselves and it does NOT distort the quality of sound. If you have improper equipment yes it can, but even decent equipment does not distort the quality of sound just the volume of the sound.

Now that's not even true. Pit sounds pre-2004 ran the gamut of tonalities, and the recordings are the best place to find proof of that due to the advantage most pits enjoy in proximity to the recording mics.

What recordings are you listening too? show me one recording where my statement proves to be untrue. I've heard recordings and that is what my opinion is. Ask any other percussionist in this field and they would also tell you that pit instruments lose alot of their body of sound when outdoors without mics. Only the higher registers and overtones speak above the corps.

The quality of sound we get from today's pit because of amplification is extraordinarily better. (please see that I wrote quality of sound)

We had all those things before.

We had those instruments before yes, but the projection of these qualities of sounds was lacking. Do you know the kind of timbre a marimba has like when you roll a chord at mp? Now you would thanks to amplification. (And yes, corps do play mp in the pit. DO not argue this point because I KNOW this true)

This is simply a cop-out.

It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along).

Your post shows the press-box mentality that was applied in invoking this change. Because certain subtleties could not be easily heard upstairs, they had to be electronically amplified. Well, guess what? There are many subtleties that can't be easily heard upstairs. Sound clarity deteriorates over distance for a variety of reasons. But never mind that....so that GE judges can hear a single Udu drum, or every one of the 40 mallets, we amplify the pit and in the process submerge all the brass subtleties for the vast majority of the audience - those who are not in the nosebleed seats.

First of all, my post says little to do with volume of the pit. I said that "they don't amp the pit just for volumes sake" as my first line. There is always a balance that can showcase the unique sounds of the pit appropriately. I do not disagree with you that some pits may be "too" loud (when the the corps is playing). But that doesn't mean that we should get rid of amps all together! That just means there was a balance issue at the specific place and time that will hopefully be resolved by the end of the season.

Amping the pit is so extremely valuable to the aesthetic quality of drum corps. Corps Can and DO strike a balance between what is an acceptable volume for the pit and being able to showcase the sounds they produce appropriately.

Watching corps by the end of the season. It's clear that a lot of those bugs are worked out by the end. And the current DVD's there are few if any moments where I couldn't hear the brass and its nuances because of the pit.

The "press box" mentality that you mentioned started way before the use of amps. In fact I think it would be safe to say that ever sense drum corps started being judged everything was about the "press box" mentality since that's where the judges were. You want to make sure the judges hear and see everything to give you the most points.

[charlie1223]

Wait, are you saying amps distort the timbre of the instruments? That's odd, that seems counter-productive to what everyone was trying to accomplish when they started using amplification. I also wouldn't call it a cop-out, and I bet the thousand-or-so pit members that have performed since 2004 (including myself) wouldn't respond to that claim too warmly. My pit tech in 2008 was in Phantom '03 and '04 and I recall him talking about how dangerous it was to do that. And this was still when four or five marimbas were playing the same thing, they couldn't be heard with anything but a (leaning on dangerous) technique. There's enough carpal tunnel, and tendonitis in pits now, even with the inclusion of amps.

Besides, you could not have had many of the moments that we've had since 2004 without amps. Imagine Crown's ballad in 2008 without amps, there's no way that you would have been able to hear the solo vibraphone with much clarity, especially in large stadiums like Indiana University's that year. You also wouldn't have been able to achieve the same tone quality with any other instrument utilized in drum corps. I would consider their show one of the more memorable of the decade, and without an amp, that moment wouldn't have worked.

The entire summer is spent trying to balance the pit volume with brass. And, at least in my experience, the staff takes audience size in to consideration - bigger stadium, more volume - better balance up near the box. That's why they've recently incorporated the rule that the staff member running the soundboard could be on the phone with someone in the audience, because they wanted to find the best balance in the shortest amount of time possible. Besides, when have you ever gone to a show and said "ooh, let's sit closer to the sideline, it's better down there?"

Thanks you so much for your post. There are so many misconceptions about the pit that people just don't have all the knowledge about them to correctly make assumptions about them!

[charlie1223]

It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along).

It's clear to me that you simply do not understand the mechanics of what it means to play in a pit. I only say this because only a small fraction of the "balance" issues that occur in a pit have to do with the "correct number of each instrument voice". It is so much more complicated than that. Vastly so...

[N.E. Brigand]

We had those instruments before yes, but the projection of these qualities of sounds was lacking. Do you know the kind of timbre a marimba has like when you roll a chord at mp? Now you would thanks to amplification. (And yes, corps do play mp in the pit. DO not argue this point because I KNOW this true)

I appreciate the detail of your answer, but I'm afraid my response is: so what. Can a solo tuba play at mezzo-piano on the field and have its particular tone qualities clearly heard? When it was decided to add those pit instruments to drum corps, it was known that there were limitations on how they could be heard. Who knew the pit players were secretly longing for the day they could add a trampoline to the high jump?

The most interesting thing to learn in the latest comments is that there was a concern about injury -- I did not know that. I've read a couple thousand posts on this sub-forum over the past eighteen months, and hadn't seen that mentioned before. (Possibly it comes up all the time in the percussion board, which I don't follow.) But there is a signficant risk of injury outside the pit, too. And the answer again is to accept that there are trade-off in the creation of all art, and either have more instruments each playing softly, or accept that the stadium isn't the concert hall, and not everything possible on the instrument can be heard outdoors.

[Michael Boo]

Well, I went to that other site and watched that show.

What's my kid to do if he wants to march in the battery at that school?

...

Well, first of all, are you planning on moving to Tarpon Springs? I've been there a few dozen times visiting relatives and friends. It's a beautiful place. The only this is, despite the fact that the kids in their high school marching band get a remarkable experience that is unparalleled by at least 95% of the marching bands in the rest of the country, their band has no battery percussion section.

How the above photos would be viewed by a high school kid who wants to march in a percussion battery.