What happened to pleasing the crowd?

[bdon15]

Or a corps from Rockford, Illinois---that one year had NO ONE from Illinois in it.

Wow! that is interesting and surprising. Certainly one for the trivia books! What year did this happen?

[oldtimedrummer]

Just a quick note about legal driving time.....The drivers have 11 hours to drive having a retreat would have no impact on those hours. Corps rarely if ever travel 11 hrs to their next show.

Actually, drivers now have 10 hours of driving time, and 15 hours of on duty time. (I have a class B CDL, and the driving time guidelines have changed again) The drivers on duty clock starts when they leave the housing site for the stadium, not when they leave the stadium for the next destination. The law changed several years ago, and it looks like it has changed again. (I remember it being 11 hours total on duty and driving.)

You also have to consider the 60/70 weekly rule for total hours, and the mandatory 8 hours off. It gets complicated.

Regardless, retreat clearly puts the earlier performing corps at a distinct disadvantage. Hanging around in a hot parking lot for several hours in uniform, is no fun. You can look here for specifics on driving times: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/driver/hos/Interstate-Passenger-Carrying-Driver-Guide-To-HOS.pdf

Edited July 9, 2011 by oldtimedrummer

[Cardman]

Hello to all!

Whatever happened to pleasing the crowd?

I marched from 81 to 83, yes a long time ago and Drum Corps has came a LONG way, there is no disputing that. I could sit here and complain about today's Drum Corps, the electronics, the soloist's playing into microphones, the lack of good marching and on and on blah blah blah...but I won't because that's not the point. This has nothing to do with the kids either, I think they are all great and everytime I get to talk to some current members in the stands after shows, I make sure to tell them they are. For the record I have been out of Drum Corps the past few years, other than looking at scores on the internet or maybe watching streaming live video, due to life issues. However this year I've already been to 3 shows and have plans for 6 more.

Ok before I rant, I'd just like to cover this year first. Shows are waaay better than i've seen in the past, not sure if its because DCI is asking the corps to work on being more entertaining or because the corps know the scoring is changing next year (I think) to reflect it. For example: Carolina Crown's show where the Drum Line comes out in the beginning for warm ups and just jams for a few min while the horn line plays dances to the beats. The entire show is pretty entertaining, it's exciting to watch! Or the Cavies with thier upsidedown tenors, bass drums and sopranos! not to mention a cool drill and great sounding show. Or the Blue Stars with their scaffolding, pretty cool stuff, another snow I can cheer for. Or the Troopers, where just before the end of the show the Horn Line plays a long note fairly loud, then the Drum Major turns around and salutes the crowd AS THE HORNS GET LOUDER! and they don't even have a full horn line, I was loving that. I have yet to see SCV live this year with thier crazy drill and Madison being back in near the top (next week!!)

Now the rant. Before this year, and still this year to some extent, Glassmen, BD, Phantom (such a letdown, I was pumped for this show) are all BORING shows. I feel sorry for the kids marching there this year. Not meant as an insult at all.

When I go back and listen to previous years CD's, which I do this time of year, there is a few constants in hearing the crowd roar...MADISON and SCV. Sorry to everyone else but it's true. I know there were some others that had crown pleasing abilities in different years, VK, Bridgeman or other shows that were amazing and made you want to jump off your butt and cheer! Go back and listen to Madison from 1980 til now...almost every year the crowd yells for them the most, why is that? its like that cause THEY PLAY TO THE CROWD, not the judges...SCV is almost the same way. Look at 91 Star of Indiana - BORING! and they won...huh? How is that possible? and don't tell me about scores and how much better they were...cause because people complained they came back and did that whole USA rah rah show just to prove they weren't robots.

Don't misunderstand me, I need scores and judging, and I know the top 6 corps are much better than the bottom six, but don't make me go to sleep in the stands! All that talent going to waste on a boring show. This years BD...thats the best show they could write from Bacharach's music? Really? 14 years winning it all and thats it? and of those 14 years, how many were boring but technically amazing?

For those of you with Fan Network go back and listen to the 89 Blue Devils...thats the BD I want and long for! and the 89 Vanguard, 89 Phantom, 89 Bluecoats, 91, 92, 95, 99 Madison shows VK in the late 80's and early 90's, Vanguard being emotional (Fiddler, phantom, Miss Saigon) Freelancers blowing our doors off at the beginning of every show! Madison and Cavies throwing rifles and flags everywhere and WHY DO WE NO HAVE COOL DRUM SOLO'S ANYMORE? This kills me. Ok you don't need to spend a whole 3min during the show and feature only drums but c'mon, at least step up to the front by the pit and show me something cool (this years Cavies!)

And what's the deal with no retreats? Sure I understand the time thing, trust me I do. But at least do them at the big shows (TOC, regional shows, local big shows) something. No need to salute the winner by each corps in an effort to save time, just get out there, set up, DM front and center, scores, winner encore, everyone else leave field. Simple. Kids today are missing out on that wonderful experience of not knowing what you scored and how it affects you. Its a competition for a reason. There's nothing like being a smaller corps or a up and coming corps, marching right next to a top 6 corps going out onto the field for retreat. Or being chosen to be the Drum Line that plays to march everyone on the field. Then getting out there , setting up your instruments, the CG doing some sort of stance to look better than the other CG's. The Drum Majors competing who'll be last getting up front and center, the reading of the scores and hearing your corps score and how close it was to the corps your trying to beat. I'll never forget the time we beat the Cavies! They read the score, "in third place with a score of 76.2, the Cavaliers" we were all freaking out and trying to keep our bearing...it was awesome!

First DCI has to fix this judging issues that makes Corps need to play to them to survive (credit to GeneralTsoChicken) I've heard this is Micheal Cesario's new job. Until DCI fixes the way they are to be judged, the writers of the shows hands are tied a bit but...whoever is writing these shows still need to work in that crowd pleasing element along with playing for score. It's not fair to the kids or the crowd. I want todays kids to have the same experience I did, I want them to feel the exhilaration of the crowd when they roar for you, I want them to be out on the field at retreat and feel what its like to have the crowd cheer for you again.

To the kids and young men and woman marching today, You are amazing! I can't begin to tell you how much I appreaciate you and I hope this is/has been a great experience fr you as it was for me. It's something that'll always be with you...always!

I know this is just a forum and what I say won't change anything but still, bring back pleasing the crowd for the love of God! For me, I don't care about whatever is choosen to enchance Drum Corps musically or how you use it, just make it innovative and make me wanna stand up and yell!! Lets just make it about letting the kids have fun and the crowd apprectiating that fun!

Done. Whew.

:worthy:

Keep the faith. Change is in the air. Its economically driven too. DCI can not afford to lose fans and not replace them with new fans. Thats a blueprint for insolvency. DCI is committed to making the shows more fan friendly and growing the activity and making it strong and vibrant.

You want "Change" ? Its coming. At least thats what we're being told.

And yes, we are seeing some small glimpes of show designers beginning to get the new message.

Well, not all "change" is good either. Look where "change you can believe in" got us...

[oldtimedrummer]

Well, not all "change" is good either. Look where "change you can believe in" got us...

Your political philosophy makes perfect sense as to why you would strongly support the OP. Elephants and Dinosaurs do kinda look alike.

[rainshdw08]

I feel like this post states a lot of opinions as if it were fact... For example...

91 Star was not boring, and it certainly wasn't out of place as far as programming compared to the other corps of that year. People at the time didn't think it was boring. All you need to do is listen to the crowd during the recording to know that. The crowd was pleased just fine. The reason that corps ran into so much trouble was because a lot of people didn't feel that it was fair for a corps that was so new and funded by a millionaire to come in and win everything so soon. 92 was in response to that, to get the crowd on their side. 93 was the Star show that was controversial and the one that many considered too avant garde for the activity, but that show as definitely stood the test of time.

Secondly, DCI isn't ASKING or MAKING the corps change their designs to be more fan friendly. In fact, it's really DCI that dictates the artistic direction of that activity. The judging process plays a huge role in the writing and re-writing of the drill, and during the 90's DCI started rewarding corps for writing shows that were more intellectual. So if you're upset with the programming of modern drum corps, blame DCI, not the corps' show designers. If anything, DCI has recently decided to ALLOW corps to make more entertaining shows. (I for one have been quite entertained by many shows since the 90s).

I haven't seen BD this year, so I have no idea what you're talking about with them, but it's ludicrous to say that Madison and SCV are the only fan friendly corps of the 80s, not to mention subsequent decades. Maybe YOU would rather listen to 89 BD, but I would much rather watch 99 BD. Maybe you really liked 88 SCV. Well I really liked SCV in 2000. That show was plenty entertaining for me. And I really can't be believe you said "lack of good marching". I'm sorry, but the marching demands in the 80's are simply not comparable to a modern Texas marching band much less a modern drum corps.

As for the retreat thing, the reasons why there are no longer retreats at all shows has been adequately explained in this thread I think, but I don't think the kids are unaware that they're in competition, and they're certainly not unaware of their scores. Trust me. They know. They all look at the recaps on their iphones now.

You make some emphatic points, but they're just opinions.

If you want to watch drum corps of the 80's so much, go buy the DVDs and watch them. Over and over. To your hearts content.

But don't "pity" the youth of today because they don't have the same things you had. Just because you didn't mean to be insulting doesn't mean you weren't insulting.

BTW... just came from a show tonight. Everyone around me couldn't help but say out-loud how much they enjoyed every corps tonight, bottom to top.

People at the time didn't think 91 Star was boring...really? Not one group of ppl huh? Were YOU there?

If this show went over so "well" with the crowd, explain to me why they thought they had to come back with the American Variations show then in 92? I mean, I could go on and on and on about this. There wasn't any forums to "chat" in in the early 90's really...this was a word of mouth/Drum Corps News thing. There were pretty much two sides of people for the 1991 show, one side didn't like it, the other did, end of story. But Star didn't like having a bad reputation, the "bad" reputation was the notion that they weren't CROWD PLEASING (what this post is all about) so they came back in 92, designed a show that they thought would please the crowd. It did, It was a pretty cool show, but they didn't win. Ultimately the Org went in a different direction than DCI. If there are any 90/91/92/93 Star members on this board - your opinion would be greatly respected. If I got some facts "wrong"...they aren't facts, just what I remember, feel free to correct me.

Just you know, some of your comments are an opinion...just sayin.

For the record...for the idk how manyeth (yes I made that up) time now, I AM NOT ADVOCATING WE GO BACK TO THE 80'S or ANYTIME PAST THE 80'S ARE BAD or THAT "OLD SCHOOL" IS BETTER THAN "NEW SCHOOL"

Kids today use their I Phone or Droid to check scores and recaps? What? Now way... Thanks for pointing that out. I never said they weren't aware they were in a competition or didn't know the scores...

before you post your philosophy on me, maybe you should actually read (comprehend, use google if you need to) what I wrote.

[BoyWonder1911]

About the driving times - those 10/15 8 off hours are for bus drivers.

For truck drivers, it is 11 hours driving, in a 14 hour window, with a 10 hour break. When you go back on duty after your 10 hour break, your 14 hour window starts again.

As for the original post, first off I wanted to mention that Star 1991 was not boring to me. In fact, I think it was one of the best musical performances in the history of the activity, with Cadets and Star 1993 being in there.

You seem to be a Scouts fan. Well the Scouts really have not ever played classical music. Unless you count Gershwin and other jazz-classical stuff. They have played a lot of American jazz, latin, etc. So this tells me you really don't have a taste for other normal orchestral music. That is all fine and dandy, but to call Star 1991 boring is ripping on Respighi's music. "Pines of Rome" is an excellent piece of orchestral music.

I also find the drill in that show excellent as well. The cross-to-cross at the end of the show is arguably the best closer in any show, period.

A show doesn't have to be jazzy and in your face to be a good show. And you have to realize that they don't play with bugles anymore, and the instruments they use don't really give that shrill buzz like the bugles did. The instruments they use now may be not as loud or shrill, but they blend better, and the overall sound is more comfortable.

I think a lot of what you are complaining about, you have no reason to complain because a lot of what you said simply isn't apparent.

Today's shows are entertaining because they are more artful than shows have been in the past. The activity has had a lot of time to evolve since the 1980's. All the top corps are looking for new ways to innovate, to become more competitive, and sometimes a new innovation just doesn't work out, and sometimes it is wildly successful.

Cavaliers 2000-2003, 2006 stick out to me as shows that have innovated the activity, and at the same time established a very strong identity for them. They will change, they won't always do blocky, symmetrical drill with minimalist music, and I hope to hear something similar to their 1992 show from them once again. I really do.

True, SCV 1989 is a masterpiece, but SCV 2011 is also a very well designed show, it's just on the opposite spectrum of music. It's not melodic, it's not in your face, it is not readily-noticeable music, it is not written to please judges, it was written to explore new avenues, new ideas, new ways of expressing art and music on a football, the Earth is not flat, we went to the moon, the stars in the sky are not pinholes on heaven's floor showing through, and the Earth is not the center of the universe.

I think maybe you should give the shows of this era a chance to entertain you.

I watch a lot of live drum corps shows, being on tour as a driver, and yeah I agree that some shows do bore me at times, and that is normal, no one likes every single show, but every time I watch it, I look for things that stick out as entertaining.

On the other hand, I would definitely like to see a lot more emotion in drum corps shows. I love the Cadets because a big part of their identity is bringing emotion to the field, and Phantom Regiment too.

There has only been 3 shows that have ever made me cry (besides crying for my Blue Stars when they have an exceptionally good night), and those shows are SCV 1989, Star 1991, and Cadets 2000.

Since then, really nothing.

So I agree with you whole-heartedly on this, I think bringing back music-dominated shows would be good for the activity.

But on the other hand, try to enjoy what you see on the field today. I consider myself a pretty picky fan, and I don't "love" a whole lot of shows, but I do give every show a chance, and I applaud for the kids for every show. They work so hard.

But I think the activity will go wherever the fans in general want it to go, and I think that will ultimately be back to music > visual.

[SCVsopAaron]

Yawn. These types of threads are why I don't come around here much anymore.

[garfield]

Your political philosophy makes perfect sense as to why you would strongly support the OP. Elephants and Dinosaurs do kinda look alike.

Thankfully we don't need a comparison to describe the animal that represents the other side.

[BoyWonder1911]

^ ?

I didn't read the original political opinion post, but drum corps is an inherently conservative activity...in fact, the only reason we have drum corps today is because of WWI, WWII and Korean War, if you think about it.

[jjeffeory]

People at the time didn't think 91 Star was boring...really? Not one group of ppl huh? Were YOU there?

If this show went over so "well" with the crowd, explain to me why they thought they had to come back with the American Variations show then in 92? I mean, I could go on and on and on about this. There wasn't any forums to "chat" in in the early 90's really...this was a word of mouth/Drum Corps News thing. There were pretty much two sides of people for the 1991 show, one side didn't like it, the other did, end of story. But Star didn't like having a bad reputation, the "bad" reputation was the notion that they weren't CROWD PLEASING (what this post is all about) so they came back in 92, designed a show that they thought would please the crowd. It did, It was a pretty cool show, but they didn't win. Ultimately the Org went in a different direction than DCI. If there are any 90/91/92/93 Star members on this board - your opinion would be greatly respected. If I got some facts "wrong"...they aren't facts, just what I remember, feel free to correct me.

Just you know, some of your comments are an opinion...just sayin.

For the record...for the idk how manyeth (yes I made that up) time now, I AM NOT ADVOCATING WE GO BACK TO THE 80'S or ANYTIME PAST THE 80'S ARE BAD or THAT "OLD SCHOOL" IS BETTER THAN "NEW SCHOOL"

Kids today use their iPhone or Droid to check scores and recaps? What? Now way... Thanks for pointing that out. I never said they weren't aware they were in a competition or didn't know the scores...

before you post your philosophy on me, maybe you should actually read (comprehend, use google if you need to) what I wrote.

Well, we have a disconnect here.

I agree with much of your post, but Star '91 was a bad ### show. I WAS there. People who disliked this show, probably disliked it because of their bias against Star and Star's perceived silver spoon, not because of the show. Star '93 was a different story, but '91 was a WELL received show.