Paid attendance figures for DCI World Championships

[MikeD]

Agreed. While the IRS, as far as I can tell, would not request or receive attendance numbers, DCI's insurance company almost certainly would.

(That insurance company, however, probably would not publicly dispute what DCI said in a press release, if it differed from what the insurance company was told. I'm not saying this happened, just that we'd have no way of knowing if it did.)

Which is my point.

[Jeff Ream]

Oh sure, just like some DCP'er to tell us he knows somebody really, REALLY important at the Montreal Stadium , and he wants us all to believe that his anonymous, unnamed sources there are far more reliable than DCI itself for DCI's own paid attendance figures they publish each and every season. Look, here's the real deal for the non gullible here : DCI is required under its legal obligations to give their paid attendance numbers to their accountant that files their reports to the I.R.S. DCI doesn't exaggerate those numbers. Thats preposterous. Its a felony to do so. And DCI isn't giving one set of paid attendance numbers to the I.R.S. and another to the public .Its also fall down funny that some posters think that DCI might have exaggerated the numbers BITD . And even funnier still that a few posters here think that non gullible people here think such conspiracy theories of DCI exaggerating the paid attendance figures was something that DCI did BITD. So this isn't really a case of someone making a mountain out of a molehill as much as it is some posters concocting silly stories of DCI exaggerating to the public its paid attendance figures for some as of yet, unexplained reason.. In other words... 3, maybe 4 posters here want us not to believe DCI's paid attendance figures for some years, instead just believe the paid attendance figures DCI gives us now ( haha!) . DCI was exaggerating the paid attendance numbers back then ( DCI can't be trusted ), but they are really, really accurate now ( DCI can be trusted ) ... haha!! Talk about trying to spin ridiculous stuff that can't be spun unless its to the really gullible ( lol!) But hey, thanks for the chuckle, anyway. ( lol!)

and of course Brasso, you can choose to believe who you want to believe. I'll say being able to get to know a few ballplayers before they hit it big and some that never hit it big was a great experience, got my little baseball obsessed brother the thrill of a lifetime to be a batboy, and has helped me not pay for many MLB tickets since 1992. Also got me into many banquets and luxury boxes where you get to meet some interesting people. I had to remember Gary Carter once was an Expo, I couldn't block my Mets hatred of him out LOL.

does DCi fudge numbers now. I doubt it. Did they ( and many major league sports teams) used to do it? possibly.

I'm pretty sure the 22,085 or whatever it was this year is 100% legit. I'm sure soon we'll see a really stats laden pres release touting a lot of numbers.

But....here's the thing....it's slowly but surely going back up...what must you doubt everyone and poo-poo everything? Look, I've been as critical of DCI for many things on here over the years, but good lord man, the activity is moving back in the right direction on many fronts!

Be ####### happy with that!

Now if you don't mind, I'll go see if I can find the video at Dad's house of the wiffle ball game in his back yard with the 1993 Eastern League Champion Harrisburg Senators. Ahh, hanging out with Curtis Pride, Cliff Floyd, Rondell White, Miguel Batista, Joey Eischen, Ugi Urbina

and of course the time spent with Vladimir Guerrero ( hint he can speak english, he just doesnt want to when the press is involved), the Machado brothers, Jose Vidro, Roger Bernidina.....so many good times with kids just trying to make the show. And of course guys like Benny Puig who never did, but were still family. I still remember dad calling me at midnight: "get over here...we have to pack Rogers stuff and meet him at BWI, he's starting tomorrow in Washington!"

[Jeff Ream]

I marched in Olympic Stadium in Montreal in 1981 at finals. It was by far the biggest crowd I ever saw at finals. It is both hilarious & sad to see DCP'rs making things up in hopes to discredit the attendance numbers from BITD. The reality is that finals today draws about half as many people as it did in the late 1970's & early 1980's. Congratulations DCI!

what were the Birmingham numbers out of curiousity? I don't recall ever seeing them, or Denver published

[Jeff Ream]

No one has even come close to making the accusations you have claimed You made them this big to hear yourself talk as usual. What a hot mess. and a disgrace.

Thank Goodness some have no influence on the activity. Or ever did.

forget it, he's rolling ($1 to Boon)

[Jeff Ream]

Yes they did. Did you read Jeff's post?

the stadium officials admitted numbers weren't accurate back then.

Did I say specifically DCI? No. I just said numbers. Could be baseball, could be the Olympics in 76, CFl games......because they used turnstile counts, and tursntiles don't=equal paid, there's now way of knowing if the numbers were 100% legit for any event.

Example....in it's heyday, pre sky boxes, the Vet in Philly held like 63k for baseball...yet you'd often hear ( ok, for maybe like 4 years) there's 65,000 here tonight....so was that the paid? Was that how many people went through the turnstiles? Even know, you look at a Phillies game and see the Bank 75% empty, but look in the box score and they list paid, but not actual ##### in the seats. Why? because now, with technology as it is, they can truly track paid for tickets, regardless of who shows up. When the Phils played the Dodgers at home on 8/7, they announced paid as 26k.....no way there was 26k in that park.

But in 1981, they didn't and in many cases couldn't track paid like they can now, so they went off of turnstiles numbers. I've seen people on Facebook recently claim 40k in Montreal....so, ok, if it was 40,000, why was the 36,000 number flashed up on the board?

As DCI has, to the best of my knowledge, never really released numbers before the mid 90's, who knows who was there?

but we do know this....DCI was 15k or lower just a few years ago...and now they're at 22...paid. shows across the country and reporting attendance was up. So let's stop pissing and moaning about what was, what may have caused it to drop, who may or may not have lied and set Brasso off...and let's just find ways to keep the growth happening!

[Jeff Ream]

He sure did. Its right up top, as a matter of fact. He said the numbers from BITD may not be " legit ". Its as clear as a bell thats what he said. Nice try... but its even a fail on this for you.

see my post above. it's very easy to understand if you don't try to read between the lines and add in your own personal agenda

[Jeff Ream]

Guardling is frustrated because at every turn now, its easy to refute what he says. Jeff said above he has a source at the Montreal stadium that told him the 1981 paid attendance numbers were not 100% accurate. Thats what Jeff said. Its in black and white.. not open to debate as to what Jeff actually said above on the figures not being 100% . Now he claims Jeff didn't say this " ( lol!).

None of these 3 or 4 has yet told us how their sources would be more reliable with the numbers of tickets purchased than DCI itself would be. How would a stadium employee, not afiliated in any capacity at all with DCI, have better authenticity on the numbers of tickets sold than would DCI itself ? They wouldn't. Thats why these people get frustrated ( lol!), its because inquisitive, thinking, rationale people such as ourselves come along and say... well, wait a minute here now, how would these sources of yours have better intel than DCI would ? When they can't come up with a plausable, rationale answer to that, then they go into their predictable insulting mode. But if you think about it, thats all they've got left when their bogus claims, without a shred of evidence to support it, implode on t"hemselves like this, FlamMan.

psst....Brasso....this is what Jeff said:

"Ahhh Brasso, always looking to make mountains out of molehills.

FYI it was a different era and some stuff may have been nudged up for a lack of technology to give true accounting. Back then a lot of stadium events used turnstile counts. Doesn't mean entry was paid, it just tells you how many came in.

Having housed players for the former Expos AA affiliate, I've gotten to know people involved with the stadium. They even admitted numbers weren't 100% accurate back then"

Did I say DCI's numbers? no, I did not.I said numbers. Why? for the reason I listed above that statement and i've said in other posts. But for you, I'll go slow and use all caps....

BACK

IN

THE

DAY

MAJOR

STADIUMS

USED

TURNSTILES

COUNTS

WHICH

DID

NOT

GIVE

AN

ACCURATE

ACCOUNTING

OF

PAID

ATTENDANCE

.

ALL

IT

SHOWED

WAS

HOW

MANY

PEOPLE

ATTENDED

,

WHICH

DOES

NOT

100

%

REFLECT

PAID

ATTENDANCE

.

IT

COULD

REFLECT

PAID

AS

WELL

AS

FREEBIES

,

PASSES

,

WRISTBANDS

,

YOU

NAME

IT.

Maybe now, you'll come down off your windmill

[Jeff Ream]

Thank you all for starting the off-season entertainment in such grand fashion.

I know attendance is a hot topic, but it is still surprising how crazed the debating gets. I thought I would have to wait for the annual DCI attendance press release for the fireworks to fly, but we are getting a head start. My personal favorite was the one who said attendance was "down 100%".

There are details I seek to clarify or confirm:

Please elaborate on the nature of the alleged inaccuracies. First, what do the numbers represent? Are you referring to turnstile counts, paid attendance, or something else?

Why were numbers not 100% accurate? Is the inaccuracy intentional, or simply an error or uncertainty?

Were the numbers too high, or too low? How far off could the numbers be?

Where was the 32,427 number published?

perhaps you should have read the entire post as well as the others i've clarified this.

[Jeff Ream]

That.

I have to admit that I was beginning to lose interest several years ago and questioning why I was paying thousands of dollars every year (Friends of DCI, hotel, plane fare etc) when I was finding the majority of the shows very boring and unengaging. Well performed - yes, but dull and not entertaining. I think it is a huge part of why my now 22 year old who was going to DCI shows since he was 6 had zero interest in marching when he was old enough - he sat through the shows with dad and was thoroughly bored.

Happily the pendulum has swung back the other way and the past few years I have found the vast majority of the shows top to bottom to be extremely entertaining with only a small handful being "meh".

agreed.

I also factor in the level of competition at the top. having a sure fire 4 corps race adds intrigue and gets those last minute buyers in the door

[Jeff Ream]

Well, I don't think anyone's been arguing that DCI has lied about its attendance figures at any time. Instead, the points that have been raised are these:

--On some occasions, they've chosen not to release attendance figures publicly.

--From one year to the next, they might release a different set of figures, making comparisons difficult.

--For older figures, as for Finals held in Montreal in 1981 and 1982, which are widely held to be the highest-attended years, it's not even possible to point to a release from DCI in support of such claims.

So we get he-said, she-said remarks about the attendance figures of earlier years having been exaggerated, or not. Or arguments about whether ticket-counting methods of 30+ years ago were better or worse than today. And spurious claims that the figures publicized at those times must have been accurate because they also were filed with the IRS--which they weren't.

Personally, I believe that all the figures we've got are approximately correct, but I can see how these discrepancies would be maddening for anyone trying to get a more accurate picture.

What is Indiana's "state board of accounts"? Does it collect attendance information on all non-profits, or just for stadiums? In Ohio, by contrast, there's no state agency keeping track of attendance at all non-profit performing arts companies.

thank you on 1981. all i've ever seen is a scoreboard picture