GUARDLING Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 That sounds GREAT to me. Maybe different corps connect with different audiences in a different way from night to night. It's not as if we expect this subjective activity to use objective criteria. It's rather impossible to do. I like what I'm hearing about the new sheets so far, but the proof will be in the pudding. Like when we see the sheets and how they're applied. unfortunately sometimes it takes a season sometimes more for the interpretation of sheets to be agreed upon and usually are on going issues. For Judges , yes education should or one would think would take care of this but usually never does. All subjective. Thats why I think no matter what the sheets say or what subcaptions are or regardless of score lets just hope the right corps get in the right spots.....jmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Giuseppe Verdi supposedly knew his operas were a success when the audiences at great opera houses cheered his works one night, and the next day he heard organ grinders playing the same piece. The point? He knew that his music had to appeal to the elite as well as to the average person who might not know music but knows what he or she likes. This could be a lesson for drum corps. Great shows can be techinically difficult as well as entertaining. Just look at Madison in 88, SCV in 89, or Phantom in 2008. Chances are at the average show there are maybe 10% who are there for the competition and know why one corps is better than another. Another 10% would be those who may be at a competition because they once marched or followed the activity years ago and decide which corps remind them of the old days and judge accordingly (people like me). The rest are probably there for all kinds of reasons, perhaps simply seeing a poster in a store and deciding it might be a good evening’s entertainment. Last August at East Coast Classic, I sat near a group of high school students from a small town in Maine. Three were members of a band. One, the driver, had no musical training and his claim to fame was being the president of the school’s Latin Club. The Latin Club president was curious about judging, what he should be looking for, and what made a corps good and not so good. He asked the people around him questiosn throughout teh show, and let's face it, most people at shows love talikng drum corps. His schoolmates were of little help and had strong opinions about the corps competing. The Latin Club president played closer attention, recalled specific strengths and flaws, and correctly predicted the winner. Now, do we leave the judging to non-musical people who attend a show because his buddies need a ride and he’s bored living in his small Maine town? No. Judging should be by trained professionals who can recognize a corps’ abilities and challenge them to achieve perfection. Should a portion of the score be based on audience favorites? No. However, if there was a way to calculate and award a “people’s choice” award of some kind, it would be interesting. It would not be the top prize—that’s the job of a judge, but some kind of an award from the audience would not only be rewarding for the corps, it would engage the audience and could even make the show more interesting to people new to the activity. Will this ruin a show when the unclean masses decide who should receive recognition? Probably not. Chances are that people who may not understand what is happening on the field or may not recognize the music, even members great unwashed, may still spot a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 unfortunately sometimes it takes a season sometimes more for the interpretation of sheets to be agreed upon and usually are on going issues. For Judges , yes education should or one would think would take care of this but usually never does. All subjective. Thats why I think no matter what the sheets say or what subcaptions are or regardless of score lets just hope the right corps get in the right spots.....jmo I can agree with that, but there's going to be arguments about which "right" corps get into the correct spots. For instance, it seems like Cavies and BD are polar opposites in marching style... So, you either love the way BD does it or the way Cavies march. I'm not sure how it works in the guard world. So, we get another set of subject sheets in this subjective activity. To me it's much easier to judge the correctness of a curve or a straight line than it is to critique Rave versus Freestyle... It's easier to tell whether or not flags are being spun synchronously versus individual belly dances... One thing is pretty measurable. The other is pretty darned subjective and too difficult to rank and rate. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I wouldn;'t mind seeing something like this done side by side with regular judging a ta big event to see what the outcome would be, but as the final determiner of who wins and who doesn't, no thank you Agreed. on a just-for-fun, one-off basis, maybe - though even that might be dangerous, because could you imagine the people's choice crowd-appeal homers howling for Hop/Gibbs/Cesario's head on a platter after some mid-tier group won by a landslide at a regional show on their home turf, thereby "proving" that the regular judging system is flawed, rigged, unfair, etc? The DCP Forum switchboard board would light up like a Christmas tree. Yikes! regards, Fred O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Rott Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I can see it now...Corps rally to get as many voters in the stands as possible so they can place higher..it's all popularity...just like the voting reality shows. I like the side by side or fan's choice award, but as the final vote...I don't think it would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I can agree with that, but there's going to be arguments about which "right" corps get into the correct spots. For instance, it seems like Cavies and BD are polar opposites in marching style... So, you either love the way BD does it or the way Cavies march. I'm not sure how it works in the guard world. So, we get another set of subject sheets in this subjective activity. To me it's much easier to judge the correctness of a curve or a straight line than it is to critique Rave versus Freestyle... It's easier to tell whether or not flags are being spun synchronously versus individual belly dances... One thing is pretty measurable. The other is pretty darned subjective and too difficult to rank and rate. Oh well. its all and always has beeen sujective..thats our activity and were kinda way far beyoned just straight lines or Just unison work...so as always there will be way different opinions...so nothing changes...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 In a Utopian world, that concept would be great. However, at any one show there are far too many variables that have absolutely NOTHING to do with either how entertaining corps are, or how musically proficient they are...it has more to do with how many parents, supporters and alumni may be there. It also could be affected by such remote factors as musical genres and what the corps at that particular show have chosen for their musical selections. Let's face it, if you are a jazz fan and not keen on classical music, and four out of seven corps at a show play classical programs, two play jazz and one plays contemporary, you're going to score the jazz corps higher-even though the guy behind you hates jazz and loves classical and will have the polar opposite of your scores. Even at the major shows, I would place little faith that the fans in attendance could really give a truly unbiased read on what was on the field that day/night. All you have to do is browse through DCP for a few minutes, and it's easy to see that there are some who will NEVER like what (insert corps name here) presents, no matter what it is or how it's performed. Many casual fans may really enjoy what a corps is playing, and of course that should be taken into consideration-but they may have little or zero knowledge that the proficiency level of the corps playing it is well below that of another corps playing something they don't enjoy as much. The concept of a "Fans Choice" isn't a bad idea. It already exists to some degree, just take a walk by the souvie stands and see where folks are parting with their money. A few years ago, each year at the Championships, Disney sponsored a "Spirit of Disney" award that was given to the "most entertaining" corps. I have no idea "who" was involved in that selection process or what "their" criteria were, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to see if we can revive that type of award and have the fans choose-whether it be online, texting, or whatever and over the course of more than one show (ie. the whole season, championship week or whatever). In the end, how much of it is really about the scores, anyway? The winners are the kids who lived drum corps all summer and their corps experience-whether their corps finished in fourth place or fourteenth place or dead last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedawn Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You guys are WAY over-thinking this. It's just marching band. "Winning" means literally nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) You guys are WAY over-thinking this. It's just marching band. "Winning" means literally nothing. we say that alot and many of us believe that and many dont guess some could define winning many ways..for some the experience for some the 1st place...neither are wrong...its a personal thing I think Edited January 24, 2012 by GUARDLING 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Remember: Sandra Opie was a vocal instructor before she started teaching the Argonne Rebels brass line. The difference is that Sanda Opie had music training and professional experience in brass, as well as in Voice. She was the exception, rather than the rule. This is akin to my saying " I know a fan who goes to Drum Corps shows that plays in a Rock Band, plays a Rock Guitar professionally, has done so for 2 decades, and is better qualified to judge that solo rock guitar playing in this Drum Corps Competition than that Percussion Judge out on the field there can judge that Rock Guitar solo.". While true, that fan would likewise be the exception rather than the rule. I also do not accept your premise that a Percussion Judge with their training and experience with Drums is considered qualified to judge a solo of a Rock Guitar in performance. No Guitarist worth their salt would want a Drummer to judge their Guitar playing either. Similarly, no Percussionist would want a Rock Guitarist to judge the intricicacies, demand, rhythm control, balance, integration, backbeat, bass, feet and stick work, cymbals useage, and so forth, of a drum combo solo. Such a Rock Guitarist is frankly unqualified to judge a Percussive instrument. Rock Guitar playing and Percussion playing are altogether different in skill sets, and require vastly different training, education, and experiences to accommodate both. I wouldn't want an NBA Ref to believe they're capable of being a referee in an NFL football game simply by virtue of the fact the NBA ref is a " referee by training and experience " and thus believes they're qualified to likewise referee an NFL game. The NBA refs are simply not qualified to referee NFL games, ( and vice versa ) They're 2 different skill set games altogether. And Guitar playing and Percussion playing are likewise 2 different skill set " games" altogether as well. Edited January 24, 2012 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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