Kevin Doherty Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Friends, I don't necessarily want a divisive discussion. but what the heck, I've had my say. Many good points with much disagreement and everything well said. I have been known to utter an occasional expletive, but not so far this year. but the year is young. It also means I haven't cut my finger with one of my knives when cooking. Kevin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindap Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 As a former member of a solid rifle line from the mid-70s I'm going to throw in my 1 ½ cents. As I've noted before – there was a 35 year gap from my last show as a marching member and my return to the activity attending shows. I was stunned by the differences. My first reaction was "OMG – what have theydone!". By Indy in 2010 I was appreciating the changes more and by Indy in 2011 I had a much better appreciation for "today's guard". Rifle-lines of "my day" and today's lines are apples and oranges. Neither is better, neither is worse – both can be appreciated but they cannot be directly compared. The equipment is significantly different today and the scoring system is different (creativity vs. precision). You simply cannot compare movement with a 7 pound rifle heavily weighted to the butt to what you can do with a 2.5 pound relatively even weighted rifle. You cannot compare movement with a solid metal flag pole twice your height with a spike on top with what can be done today. And today's uniform/costume allows for much more movement. Each generation has to try to accomplish the most that will maximize their points today and minimize ticks in "my day". That doesn't make one better or worse – just different. Are today's guard in better shape? Who knows. I do believe they are taken much better care of than in my day. Just the food truck concept alone gives them that edge. Yet I'd say that if you put my 16-year old body in today's guard system I think I'd kick butt just as much now as I did then. I've downloaded a number of new and old shows to my iPod. One significant difference between then and today – I can tell exactly what the rifle line is doing in some of the older shows – even if I've never seen the actual show. You can so clearly hear the precision of spin-spin-spin-hold – toss – wait – catch. We were actually another instrument on the field –I miss that in today's guard. It does seem to me that today's guard is too separated from the rest of the corps. In that respect - I understand the comments that today's guard is an "extra" - that doesn't mean I agree with those comments - I just understand them. With all that being said – I would love to see a 2012 guard enter the field, in formation and in step – do the creative things they can do today – then leave the field in formation and in step and they would quickly go on my list of "best of both worlds." (edited because apparently copying comments from Word to make sure everything is spelled correctly ends up with spaces being deleted when pasted into here - sorry if I didn't catch them all. Thanks for your perspective. I often wonder if the people in these threads were in a guard? We worked behind the scenes for years and are now becoming prominent lol. I also miss the cadence of the rifle line, the punctuation of a sentence. I like your "best of both worlds" quote. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Window dressing was never mentioned and I did not summarily dismiss the guards of today. One would be wise to not arbitrarily lump individuals into groups. I currently instruct DCI, WGI, DCA, DCUK/DCE and while the multiple responsibilities that are required with the inclusion of MORE lower body work in the guard books of today is admirable, to say the guards of decades past have no spatial awareness is comical. The vocabulary may be somewhat more demanding physically due to the inclusion of more dance/movement. However, the precision required from full unit phrasing is no less in decades past than is what is required today. There are reasons you do not see extended phrases of uniform work in most marching units today, and that is because they would not be clean. The guards were integral in show design before and still are today, but the judging is subjective and not based on precision. Look at some recent recaps and validate how a DCI winning guard/corps can get a perfect visual and/or guard score with drops and phrasing. I have embraced change and for that reason still instruct on many levels. That is not to say I do not respect and admire the past. The part I emphasized above is the core of the issue. DCI has eliminated what used to set Drum Corps apart from other marching musical generas, and then wonders where the fans went. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Doherty Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Friends, Not that I relish the level of disagreement here or some of the rancor, but to a certain degree I am LMAO. One of the respondents actually edited my comments in his or her blue box. Having been involved in music and marching for about 60 years, I refuse to take away from anyone's accomplishments. I love today's kids as much as I love my contemporaries. However, if someone wants my kid, we may able to make an arrangement. Kevin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoast30YearFan Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Love this comment posted earlier by WIS: With all that being said – I would love to see a 2012 guard enter the field, in formation and in step – do the creative things they can do today – then leave the field in formation and in step and they would quickly go on my list of "best of both worlds." Me, I love the activity and will always support it. My hope: The return of weapon technique ! It has lost it's importance to other demands of today's programs. Flag work/technique today is stellar, don't change a thing, amazing work and creativity. What I miss most is the solid, unified smack, not the click-clack-click of today, but the smack. (with no upside-down guns, etc..). Oh, also, take a look at WGI 1982, St. Joseph's Grenadiers. Follow the rifle line. If you have experience with weapons, you will know the skill there. Constant demand from start to finish, done exactly the same way, at exactly the same time. My favorite of all time ! Thanks for reading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Love this comment posted earlier by WIS: With all that being said – I would love to see a 2012 guard enter the field, in formation and in step – do the creative things they can do today – then leave the field in formation and in step and they would quickly go on my list of "best of both worlds." Me, I love the activity and will always support it. My hope: The return of weapon technique ! It has lost it's importance to other demands of today's programs. Flag work/technique today is stellar, don't change a thing, amazing work and creativity. What I miss most is the solid, unified smack, not the click-clack-click of today, but the smack. (with no upside-down guns, etc..). Oh, also, take a look at WGI 1982, St. Joseph's Grenadiers. Follow the rifle line. If you have experience with weapons, you will know the skill there. Constant demand from start to finish, done exactly the same way, at exactly the same time. My favorite of all time ! Thanks for reading. as one who done it back in the day...it was hottttttttt........But trust me it was much easier to do spin spin flat dip toss a tripple good than smak a 7 which most WC corps do , dance underneath, hand positions right, running across a field...Yes we were hot BUT..a vast difference...againlook at old videos and sure many times the equipment was good but try to judge it with all elements of todays requirements, hands feet, face and equipment.....................you cant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereese Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I'll throw in a split vote, one from each coast: 2-7 and these ladies (couldn't find a comparable 2-7 one at the moment): Just curious, does anyone have any statistics on 27 and Anaheim. How many times did either of those guards lose the "High Guard" trophy to the other? Just the years they went head-to-head and were competitive, 1970-1974 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Our activity, as much as some would not agree....is very subjective..today as well as Back in the day.....the tick system was a horror and subjective also..but thats another debate....scores also within the scope of very few points doesnt mean perfect or without flaw it merely means the best of a particular night. You said you teach in DCI, WGI etc etc.......I would think you would know this.............thats why I would love to pick your brain on all this especially it seems we may have come from the same era and still involved today. Agree...the tick system was totally a subjective system....lots of little subjective decisions. Just counting 'errors' is hardly the best way to evaluate the performance of a group, no matter what section. So much is missed that is the sum total of the evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Apparently ignorance is someone who doesn't agree with you. My positions are well founded and well reasoned. Get over your anger otherwise you define ignorance. No -- ignorance is having no clue about the relative abilities of today's performers vs. the '70s. Those performers were doing SO MUCH less that there's just no comparison. Two posters (myself and Karamaraq) posted hypotheticals which you carefully ignored. Why? And if No way. Today's aux can't march. They are no more than window dressing. No disrespect to the Kids. I respect their efforts. and Part 2: George Parks was throwing a Mace into the skies in the 70s and 80s. ....The corps of the 50s were spinning M-1s, not light weight cut-outs. Sure, times have changed. Now it's easier. and 'My mommy took me to dance when i was little' are "well-reasoned" and "well-founded", not only do you not have clue about guard -- you also need some guidance on what "well-founded" means. No disrespect to you. I respect your efforts. In any case "marching at 120 and doing drop spins and presents on flag and rifle spins" is what kids today learn in middle school guard. Perhaps you might be better served watching that since clearly you don't have any appreciation for the activity today. I have a great deal of respect for guards of the past. They're the foundation for what we have today. And -- in it's own way -- the mechanical nature was fun to watch for a bit. But it gets *awfully* monotonous very quickly. The military style is probably best left to the military -- silent drill teams are cool to watch -- occasionally. But to summarily dismiss what today's guards do as easy makes it clear you have no idea of what's hard and easy to do with a rifle. And we haven't even discussed the flag work -- I suppose the front and back presents and streamers made things SO MUCH more difficult as well. And the flag poles were solid iron poles too. You're just a silly man. But thanks for playing. ps. quoting an entire post when in a reply is bad form. shortening to just the salient points is more appropriate. BUT ... i appreciate your effort. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 No -- ignorance is having no clue about the relative abilities of today's performers vs. the '70s. Those performers were doing SO MUCH less that there's just no comparison. Two posters (myself and Karamaraq) posted hypotheticals which you carefully ignored. Why? And if and and 'My mommy took me to dance when i was little' are "well-reasoned" and "well-founded", not only do you not have clue about guard -- you also need some guidance on what "well-founded" means. No disrespect to you. I respect your efforts. In any case "marching at 120 and doing drop spins and presents on flag and rifle spins" is what kids today learn in middle school guard. Perhaps you might be better served watching that since clearly you don't have any appreciation for the activity today. I have a great deal of respect for guards of the past. They're the foundation for what we have today. And -- in it's own way -- the mechanical nature was fun to watch for a bit. But it gets *awfully* monotonous very quickly. The military style is probably best left to the military -- silent drill teams are cool to watch -- occasionally. But to summarily dismiss what today's guards do as easy makes it clear you have no idea of what's hard and easy to do with a rifle. And we haven't even discussed the flag work -- I suppose the front and back presents and streamers made things SO MUCH more difficult as well. And the flag poles were solid iron poles too. You're just a silly man. But thanks for playing. ps. quoting an entire post when in a reply is bad form. shortening to just the salient points is more appropriate. BUT ... i appreciate your effort. yep yep and YEP...all true 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.