Blue Devils Calendar

[ContraFart]

marching is a skill. now add step size, angle, velocity, tempo, any body added to it....it's more than just marching left right left right

which is the entire basis of my argument :-)

[Plan9]

I mostly agree and have said these same things myself.

I will throw this out there for discussion:

<satan's lawyer>

If a figure skater A does 1 quad in their long program and figure skater B does 4 quads (all different mind you -- toe loop, salchow, lutz, axel and all spread out in the program) in their long program, who gets more credit? Both skaters performed the same skill yet skater B performs the skill multiple times -- even at the end of their program when the physical demand is much more difficult).

Does the same thing apply in DCI?

</satan's lawyer>

Dear Counselor (BTW, how is he to work with?),

Your example has merit, but there are measures of difficulty in DC that can't always be tied to the obvious, like number of rotations in a jump. It can be measured in purity of movement done so well (as a group...i.e. feet, etc) that it flows flawlessly through the design. In fact, it's more closely defined by the term "style" than "difficulty". Don't get me wrong, difficulty has weight... but, three rotations done at the edge of a skater's ability (strained and reaching.... looking like accomplishing the rotation was more important than how ugly the movement was executed) doesn't compare IMO to a perfectly executed design (even if it has less movement).

An example of this comparison might be BD with the chairs....movement in and around them had zero tolerance (the chairs didn't adjust themselves) and there were moments in the performance that inches separated success or disaster; also catching a rifle while standing on one again meant zero tolerance. But, some viewers didn't see that, what they saw was MM's sitting in chairs. The judges weighed this and IMO this is part of the reason for BD09 receiving their highest score ever....near perfection in design and execution.

Compare that to the extraordinarily difficult Cadets 09 design of WSS. There were drill movements that reached (and perhaps surpassed) human ability to perform them...and became impossible to get "cadet clean" nor execute smoothly. So...which type of difficulty has greater weight in a judges eyes?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Plan9

[ContraFart]

Dear Counselor (BTW, how is he to work with?),

Your example has merit, but there are measures of difficulty in DC that can't always be tied to the obvious, like number of rotations in a jump. It can be measured in purity of movement done so well (as a group...i.e. feet, etc) that it flows flawlessly through the design. In fact, it's more closely defined by the term "style" than "difficulty". Don't get me wrong, difficulty has weight... but, three rotations done at the edge of a skater's ability (strained and reaching.... looking like accomplishing the rotation was more important than how ugly the movement was executed) doesn't compare IMO to a perfectly executed design (even if it has less movement).

An example of this comparison might be BD with the chairs....movement in and around them had zero tolerance (the chairs didn't adjust themselves) and there were moments in the performance that inches separated success or disaster; also catching a rifle while standing on one again meant zero tolerance. But, some viewers didn't see that, what they saw was MM's sitting in chairs. The judges weighed this and IMO this is part of the reason for BD09 receiving their highest score ever....near perfection in design and execution.

Compare that to the extraordinarily difficult Cadets 09 design of WSS. There were drill movements that reached (and perhaps surpassed) human ability to perform them...and became impossible to get "cadet clean" nor execute smoothly. So...which type of difficulty has greater weight in a judges eyes?

You almost have me convinced, however you are talking about 15 seconds of a 13 minute show. Also while I see the merit in what your saying, non static elements can be more difficult and dangerous because they are more susceptible to human error. (A great reference to that was the tenor player falling for Magic at the 2002 finals)

Also just a note BDs 2009 score was not the highest ever (99.05).....that honor is shared between the 2002 Cavaliers and the 2005 Cadets (99.15)

*edit re reading your post you were referring the the organizations best score, not DCI's I believe*

Edited July 14, 2012 by ContraFart

[Jeff Ream]

which is the entire basis of my argument :-)

doing it over and over again doesn't mean you should get points, especially if you're trying too much and isn't clean

[ContraFart]

doing it over and over again doesn't mean you should get points, especially if you're trying too much and isn't clean

But by your logic if they perform a move for 16 counts clean, then it is achieved and thats that....is there not challenge to sustaining marching through difficult tempos and forms and intervals? Also if you miss a dozen notes playing flight of the bumble bee isnt not as noticeable and no less impressive?

[Kamarag]

is there not challenge to sustaining marching through difficult tempos and forms and intervals?

We're at a point now where marching at fast tempos isn't nearly as difficult as it was even a few years ago. It was a lot more impressive and deserved more credit when only a few corps could do it (let alone achieve it) on a regular basis. It's become the norm now with everyone, at least at some point in every show.

So, if that's all you do in your show, then no. It's not a challenge. Variety is the key. Sure, demonstrate achievement in fast temp marching. Even over a period of time to demonstrate stamina. But then go do something else. variety is credited far less that it should be, given that it's on the sheets.

[ContraFart]

We're at a point now where marching at fast tempos isn't nearly as difficult as it was even a few years ago. It was a lot more impressive and deserved more credit when only a few corps could do it (let alone achieve it) on a regular basis. It's become the norm now with everyone, at least at some point in every show.

So, if that's all you do in your show, then no. It's not a challenge. Variety is the key. Sure, demonstrate achievement in fast temp marching. Even over a period of time to demonstrate stamina. But then go do something else. variety is credited far less that it should be, given that it's on the sheets.

I do not think its less difficult to march fast tempos, its just that the activity puts more effort in to athletic training than in years past. I think that the drill has progressed to keep up with "more athletic" member.

I also think that corps the do conventional drill do not just get out there and "run" for 13 minutes. They provide variety in movement and style. As I said before one of the hardest parts of Crowns show is when they are almost standing still.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ContraFart

[coltshannan]

When the recent discussion about the BD only competing around 20 times this year, I started checking out their calendar. I did not take the time to check the number of shows they've entered in recent years. Maybe they're one of a few corps who can blow off some apperance money, but at the same time, with the talent they usually have on and off the field, there may be something to say about more time off. The amount of energy lost and lack of quality sleep must have some effect on many of the corps members at various times during the season. Also, having good outdoors weather year round might allow them to get the majority of their drill done during monthly camps.

The NFL has been a copycat league for years (westcoast offense, nickle/dime packages, etc.), so I wonder if others might cut back some in future years similar to the BD.

Every corps should compete in a specified amount of shows. If you're doing like off broadway without any critics, then the other corps are at disadvantage, their audience for change is the judges. The only bad example of this is Spiderman-The Show they already spent a boatload of money and had to acru it by going straight to the big show.

[84BDsop]

Every corps should compete in a specified amount of shows. If you're doing like off broadway without any critics, then the other corps are at disadvantage, their audience for change is the judges. The only bad example of this is Spiderman-The Show they already spent a boatload of money and had to acru it by going straight to the big show.

How many US shows did Madison do in 88....the Euro trip not withstanding....and how many EURO shows did they do?