GUARDLING Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) I don't now how you feel releasing judge tapes escalates to making every aspect if a corps show up for vote or consideration. If you release the tapes after the season no harm or foul. Don't have to release all maybe just finals week tapes. While there may be debate it may be a good thing to have judges more accountable for their scores and may lead to better, more consistent judging. A good judge would have no problem having his thoughts shared. You are acting like you are the only staff member or person who has listened to judges tapes on DCP. I'm not saying my experience matches yours but withholding the most important opinions in drum corps seems silly to me in an activity that is only based on opinion. Judges in early season do play a roll in shaping design choices, absolutely. By the end the nature if the tapes change and at that point they can judge what the show contains instead of what it's lacking. Releasing Finals weeks tapes can't hurt... you are right here on many accounts...none of which has anything to do with a spectator...judging accountability belongs to the ones being judged you are very much entitled to this opinion....just giving my side of it and a few friends I guess..lol also your experience either way is of value of course....I know people in the activity 5 years and brilliant and also know some over 30 years and clueless Now to go back to the actual post I think BDs victory means that a door is open for creativity, exploration,being able create something traditional as well as obscure and everything in between. If people in most walks of life didnt stick their necks out, go against the grain even if it wasnt the popular thing to do ,MOST inventions,progression and some of the worlds masterpieces wouldnt exsist..............it should also allow for taking the traditional and giving it a fresh and new look.....and this also means if it works or not.....not being held back.........jmo not looking to debate it...just an opinion Edited September 11, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'm guessing judges tapes are in a language that wouldn't be that clear to everyday fans anyway. Maybe a better thing would be, between finals and the dvd's, have judges provide commentary, at least for the higher scoring corps, in fan friendly language that is generally positive and helps fans understand what the corps did especially well and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 To be fair, they used to put commentary on the DVDs for awhile, until I think 2007 or 2008, when they went to the high bit-rate compression DVDs. At that point, there wasn't room on them, since they squished all of Finals down to two disks instead of the four it used to be. They decided to save a ton of money by halving the amount of DVDs they needed and had to produce. The staffs and fans didn't seem to mind it too much, at least I don't remember much grumbling about it. I remember hearing complaints when they took the commentary off the DVD actually, since people liked getting the viewpoint into how the shows were scored and ranked. I also liked the designer commentary they used to do for shows, why did that ever go away? It was only the Finals show, so the Final product. Not anything that could be used to affect any other shows in any way, since the season was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Edit: Several people have posted since I started this one. Now it seems excessively harsh. Sorry Guardling! New instructors are usually at fault giving programs things that arent achieveable and dont focus on the basics for success merely because they thought it was cool Well, yeah, new instructors by definition don't have the experience others do. Also, there aren't a lot of resources for learning drill in this world. There are some, but it's still a bit of a flying by the seat of pants activity. Many instructors at the bottom end of the tier aren't paid (as I understand it), and they just have to do the best they can with the knowledge they have. They will make mistakes. So? That's not a reason not to give them recordings of the judges views of great performances. They might be misunderstood? In any other art form it is perfectly normal for students to access the highest level evaluations and discussions of the most exceptional works; indeed, that's the best way to learn. You seem to be describing this scenario: "The Mandarin's staff saw BD on Fan Network and/or live, but weren't going to incorporate elements into their own show because (presumably) it would have been too challenging. But, hearing the judges tape changed their mind. Now they are incorporating drill moves that they shouldn't do, even though they are too difficult and aren't basic enough. They should have focused on the basics." Now, my only experience is as a corps member and fan, but this sounds like nonsense to me. First of all, Go for it. This "Don't go chasing waterfalls" nonsense existed in my day (early '80s), and those who followed it produced boring shows that "focused on the basics" but bored the members, who thus failed to practice enthusiastically, and ironically still scored low in both GE and execution. Trust me on this. It was the crazy, unworkable "amateurish" drill moves that we loved, even though they didn't execute well. At least we tried, and we will always remember that. (We thought a rotating heart looked more like a stomach, so that's what we called it. Then a judge on tape said, "Is that supposed to be a stomach?" That was hilarious. It was the most exciting thing we did, way better than the "basics".) There are two reasons to play it safe, physical safety, and ... that's it! Secondly, how would the judges tape cause them to make this "mistake" when seeing the actual drill didn't? I find it hard to see how the tape itself is likely to push them over the edge. Edited September 11, 2012 by Pete Freedman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 its a corps business......DUDE...plain and simple you arent entitled.....Hop can expose or do what he wants....its his corps...thats doesnt give entitlement to anyone else I didn't say I was entitled. I said...and I'll repeat in big letters so you get it.....IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF THEY DID DO IT. Talk about an opportunity to educate people at all levels. older fans, newer fans, kids wanting to see what it's all about...DCI claims it's about education, well hello....here's a golden opportunity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I would have to respectfully disagree..even as far as would Manderins benefit for BDs tapes...not at all..Ive judged alot and the worst thing is a band, corps , winter program, following what is done on the top tier. New instructors are usually at fault giving programs things that arent achieveable and dont focus on the basics for success merely because they thought it was cool.....I will just, In my opinion and many staff I know anyway, its still the corps thing...I just dont understand when spectators stopped being just that . I remember a year I decided not to teach and march an all age corps. All I wanted was to be taught, Dont ask me anything and just let me enjoy that end of it. Again I will say ( and maybe its me ) I see no reason for opening yet another end of the activity that is someone elses joblet alone another can of worms to be debated. where does it stop, when is the line crossed, the line blurred, tapes, shows, fashion consultant?..lets let the spectators to the activity write a list of acceptable themes and songs to play. putting audience aside....why on earth would I give my competition access either. You'll also getting people judging..so to speak..because thats what they are doing...but judging how they thi k it should be judged....from a decade they think is right....what made me think of that was your example on guard....lets say a guard person who dropped....most would think that means .1 off or cant be superior...not at all in guard judging in 2012 Not really into the debate of it all these days, just an opinion of someone involved on a different side of the activity corps at the lower level follow the top corps now and they can't hear the tapes. imagine if they heard the tapes...they could learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Well, yeah, new instructors by definition don't have the experience others do. Also, there aren't a lot of resources for learning drill in this world. There are some, but it's still a bit of a flying by the seat of pants activity. Many instructors at the bottom end of the tier aren't paid (as I understand it), and they just have to do the best they can with the knowledge they have. They will make mistakes. So? That's not a reason not to give them recordings of the judges views of great performances. They might be misunderstood? You seem to be describing this scenario, "The Mandarin's staff saw BD on Fan Network and/or live, but weren't going to incorporate elements into their own show because (presumably) it would have been too challenging. But, hearing the judges tape changed their mind. Now they are incorporating drill moves that they shouldn't do, even though they are too difficult and aren't basic enough. They should have focused on the basics." Now, my only experience is as a corps member and fan, but this sounds like nonsense to me. First of all, Go for it. This "Don't go chasing waterfalls" nonsense existed in my day (early '80s), and those who followed it produced boring shows that "focused on the basics" but bored the members, who thus failed to practice enthusiastically, and ironically still scored low in both GE and execution. Trust me on this. It was the crazy, unworkable "amateurish" drill moves that we loved, even though they didn't execute well. At least we tried, and we will always remember that. (We thought a rotating heart looked more like a stomach, so that's what we called it. Then a judge on tape said, "Is that supposed to be a stomach?" That was hilarious. It was the most exciting thing we did, way better than the "basics".) There are two reasons to play it safe, physical safety, and ... that's it! Secondly, how would the judges tape cause them to make this "mistake" when seeing the actual drill didn't? I find it hard to see how the tape itself is likely to push them over the edge. no judge want to see a corps go for it with no quality or promise behind it,..summer or winter program...we dont breed quality or teach well if thats done...Ive been at dozens of jusges meetimgs all through the activity and even spoke at a few and this is or has been a problem at times with judging someone with no basic progression.....If one chooses to do this fine...just dont expect a score . also playing it safe and putting out something of quality are different things.... I would much rather watch a clean well trained corps than a hot mess but one can choose to have any kind of corps they want Edited September 11, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) corps at the lower level follow the top corps now and they can't hear the tapes. imagine if they heard the tapes...they could learn! yeah what NOT to do....you of all people should realize.how many hot messes there are out there being taught by people who choose NOT to train to be cool....which usually isnt I really dont have a problem with any corps giving up their tapes as long as its THEIR choice Edited September 11, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) I didn't say I was entitled. I said...and I'll repeat in big letters so you get it.....IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA IF THEY DID DO IT. Talk about an opportunity to educate people at all levels. older fans, newer fans, kids wanting to see what it's all about...DCI claims it's about education, well hello....here's a golden opportunity really....look back at about a 1000 pages on DCP...yeah theres alot who want to be educated.... didnt really mean YOU..although I did say it..I meant in general...my bad Edited September 11, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Edit: Several people have posted since I started this one. Now it seems excessively harsh. Sorry Guardling! no problem just one persons opinion from my side of things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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