More Licensing Issues

[Jeff Ream]

Also, the discussion comes back around:

what's more important, the archival and ancillary recordings, or the live experience?

I would guess that people who travel to lots of shows might say the live experience, while people like me who don't would say the archival. I think once DCI has a definitive answer to that question, we'll know how they'll approach this issue. Unfortunately, WGI is all about the live show, so it's a bit more common to have chunks of shows silent. I personally loath that, and that's why I don't buy many WGI DVD's anymore. It won't take long for me to take as similar stance with DCI, and they'll have at least one steady, annual customer spending $0 on DCI. And for me, out of sight = out of mind.

I sincerely hope things don't get that bad, and I'm all for the technology: but only if DCI can use the technology without depreciating their product by having to cut portions of show due to lack of rights approval.

honestly at this rate, DCI will have to charge a smaller fee just to see the live feeds without the archives being available, because the archives will become worthless

[Jeff Ream]

By this I take it you mean "nothing" as in: Madison skips Empire State; and Phantom skips whatever that was called. In other words, not just electronic clips.

In fact, I might go so far as to suggest that a wonderful Cadets tradition of musically quoting tunes from the past might be in jeopardy. I know, sync rights aren't as easy. Okay. But if we're making this iron-clad, we have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's. That means rights for the music quotes too. We might even have to be conscious of the images on our silks.

It would come as a surprise to many for me to say I don't think that's the answer. Ducking into the turtle shell (sorry Cowtown, no offense intended) just means the world passes us by.

We have to take a stand on this. Youtube is littered with trangressions several orders of magnitude larger than anything drum corps might ever have done wrong. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right. I'm just saying we shouldn't blindly enforce a 1972 standard for a 2012 world.

HH

no offense, but our little niche of the planet ( indoor, drum corps, marching band) is not even a dent to what license holders feel their property is worth. we can shout to the mountaintops...unless you have serious cash to lobby to get the laws changed, it's going to get worse instead of better.

[Jeff Ream]

I'm personally OK with that: many designers do their best work when backed in a corner, and there are TONS of rights holders who apparently do not have problems with DCI arranging/recording/selling their music & samples. But, I'm not a fan of Empire State of Mind or Phantom 2008.

You mean corps would have to follow copy right laws? I'm fine with that. A) there are PLENTY of music/composers/images out there at a corps' disposal to use while clearing all legal hurdles, and B) there are many ways around those copyright laws. For example, it is impossible to listen to some "original" compositions and not be able to instantly recognize what it is blatantly derivative of. I think there was a movement from Cadets 2005 that was identical enough of a John Williams piece to make many point it out, but unique enough to avoid copy right violation (or paying out the nose for permission). That's not a bad thing by any means, but it can be done.

Again, it's all a matter of philosophy: are the live performances important enough to trump the archival and merchandise properties, or show the archival and merchandise properties get more consideration? If live performances trump all (as seems to be the case), will the merchandise and moneymaking take a hit? Will fans get fed up with a Finals DVD or Blu-ray where a majority of the corps are edited due to copyright clearance issues? I honestly don't know the answers to those questions, other than I'm not buying the Blu-rays this year because I suspected the sync rights issues would worsen from last year. I don't want to spend money on edited product, but maybe most people won't care too much.

It seems clear DCI is more interested in the live performance than the merchandise/archives so only time will tell if sales drop after the fact. I think it's telling that DCI seems to drag their feet publicly announcing the sync problems and/or if it will affect the DVD's/Blu-rays. They clearly don't want to negatively affect their sales, and I suspect that most people pre-order the videos before or directly after Finals week before clearance issues are known/made public (last year's Madison issues not withstanding).

then if nothing else, it's time DCI gets off their ### and offers finals on the Fan Network

[Jeff Ream]

really?

sigh

we get it Cadets good

care to back any of that up?

I heard the Cadets used that bit knowing DCI wouldn't pay because it's push up the price on the other rights but Cadets could afford it on their own, release it on their own and take all the money because drum corps is about them, mostly...by not sharing a complete show content, killing the DVD sales, tanking the other DCI corps...Cadets can crown Hoppy king of marching band and sell him to Disney...It seems, I think

YEA couldn't afford it on their own

[Jeff Ream]

The problem with what you are saying is that the corps designers do not (heck, they cannot) consider the DVD or Fan Network when designing. If it all works out, great, but their primary focus is and MUST be the competitive field product. Period. Sync and streaming rights are not, and never have been, the responsibility of the corps. Heck, the majority of the time you can't even secure those rights until the product is finished (which is why these things crop up in the off season).

The DVDs, BluRays, and Fan Network are such a small part of DCI's revenue (and likely the fastest shrinking segment of that revenue over the years), there's no way DCI could "ram through" a rule that would have such an enormous impact on show design, with the corps getting little in return.

What DCI should do is figure out how to better communicate what DCI and the drum corps activity is, approaching the problem in a positive way...attempt to build a partnership with publishers and sync/stream rights holders.

actually DVD's I;d agree with. Fan Network not so much

[Pete Freedman]

Point #1:

Some have said that it is DCI's responsibility to acquire the synch rights, not the corps. This may be legally true, but this misses the point everyone else is making. DCI manages a sport. The corps want to be members of the sport. The corps must follow rules laid down by DCI in order to be members of the sport. These rules may include many things that are not in the corps interest per se, but which assist DCI in promoting the sport.

DCI, like any sporting authority, can and must force member corps to comply with policies that promote the activity.

DCI itself should only attempt to acquire synch rights as a service to a corps (possibly paid), not as an acceptance of responsibility. That still must reside with the drum corps.

DCI could, for example, require the corps to accept legal responsibility for all content, in the knowledge that all content will be passed on in the various video and audio products regardless of copyright issues. Any legal costs resulting from judgements, settlements, or lawyers fees will be passed to the corps. In the event DCI chooses to black out content, the corps pays a substantial penalty.

Have you noticed all those times Nascar cars had their sponsor decals blurred on television, because of regional trademark conflicts or local franchise rights conflicts?

Yeah, me neither. If it ever happened, Nascar would not tolerate it for long, that's for sure.

Point #2:

Some have said on other threads that synch rights take a long time. "Weeks or even months" was the phrase, or something similar. This is really not that long, given the time frame of drum corps. A weak solution (compared to the one above) might be, to require all corps to submit their rights requests to DCI no later than say, May 1. Anything submitted before that time that hasn't come through by finals is allowed in and may be blacked out as now. But anything that is submitted after that deadline, that hasn't come through (been agreed to by the rights holder) cannot be played at finals.

So here's a question for Mike Boo to pass along to DCI folks: On what approximate date were the rights for these various products requested to DCI? Let's take the Cadets as an example. What is the date of the formal request by the Cadets to DCI for those rights? Oh, and just to be sure, when was the first inquiry from DCI to the Peanuts rights holders? If either was late, we've found our problem.

Point #3:

Myth: Educational institutions are allowed to use copyrighted material more liberally than commercial entities. When I worked at a media library, it was a given that educators always believe this, but are never right. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know. But the rules were clear: If you show a video to your class, not only are you not allowed to use a copy you taped off the air, you are also not allowed to use a copy you bought fair and square in a store. You must have a public performance license, which is why school districts have video libraries that acquire these rights at great annoyance and expense. And contrary to one poster, it was generally believed that rights holders do in fact go after educational institutions aggressively for violations. (However, the people I worked with were media librarians specializing in copyright for educational use, so they weren't actually lawyers. We could really use an entertainment lawyer's input on this thread.)

And no, I don't believe there are special copyright exceptions for educators selling videos with synched content, since they rarely do this. This issue is pretty much a DCI/WGI issue, other than the occasional graduation video. NCAA sports broadcasts would be related, when the venue plays a jock rock tune. I bet the NCAA either gets the rights or doesn't broadcast it.

Conclusion:

DCI should grow a pair.

[Jeff Ream]

Just got this email from DCI:

Dear Valued Fan:

Thank you for your pre-order of Drum Corps International's 2012 World Championship audio/video products! Not only do these products capture all of the excitement and exceptional live performances of the world's best marching music ensembles at the World Championships, but the sale of DCI's audio and video products helps to provide much-needed financial support to the participating organizations.

We're sending you this note to let you know that we are nearing completion of the production of this year's CD, DVD and Blu-ray sets, and your order is in our system awaiting processing. Right now we expect these products to begin shipping from our Indianapolis warehouse the week of November 12. This means you will see a charge on your credit card within the next two weeks and will receive a confirmation via e-mail once your order ships.

We know how much these products mean to participants, fans of drum corps and collectors, which is why we work so hard each year to produce products of the highest possible quality. From working with music publishers and securing appropriate licensing on behalf of the corps in compliance with copyright requirements, to choosing photography and designing product packaging, to meticulously checking each video and audio track to ensure it meets the highest standards of excellence, there is a lot that goes into producing these products each year. We are quite proud of the results!

Specific to music licensing, Drum Corps International adheres to copyright law and respects the intellectual property rights of artists whose works are performed by its member organizations. Periodically, edits to performances are necessary due to these video and music licensing considerations. We work to carry out these edits to the best of our ability to maintain the quality and integrity of the performances while still complying with intellectual property rights and copyright law.

Throughout the year we work tirelessly with music publishers in order to secure rights for every performance. Despite our diligent efforts right up to the absolute final production deadlines, there are occasions when for various reasons those rights cannot be obtained. The following is a list of performance edits that have been made to this year's products.

2012 World Championships Volume I DVD and Blu-ray

• The Cadets: 6 seconds of video and audio of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been removed.

• The Cadets: 31 seconds of audio of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been muted. The video of this segment is provided in its entirety.

• Spirit of Atlanta: 19 seconds of video and audio of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been removed.

2012 World Championships Volume II DVD

• Jersey Surf: 2 minutes and 7 seconds of video at the end of this performance has been blacked out. The audio of this segment is provided in its entirety.

2012 World Championships Volume III DVD

• Gold: 2 minutes and 30 seconds of video and audio of unlicensed material has been removed.

• Gold: 15 seconds of video and audio of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been removed.

• Music City: 4 short instances of video and audio of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been removed.

• Revolution: In adherence to copyright and music licensing procedures, the performance of Revolution does not appear on this compilation.

2012 World Championships CD

• The Cadets: 37 seconds of unlicensed, pre-recorded material has been removed.

Please feel free to contact me if you have further questions about the status of your order. Your purchase continues to support the ongoing operations of Drum Corps International and the performing corps that you see on the field each summer. As is Drum Corps International policy, if you are not absolutely delighted with your purchase, we will provide you with a complete refund.

As an additional thank you for being among the first to order this year's World Championship audio/visual products, I wanted to be the first to let you know about an upcoming Friends and Family sale we will be having next week online at shop.DCI.org. Between Nov. 9 and 12, use coupon code FF12EB during the checkout process to save 20% on merchandise storewide. Visit DCI.org during the promotional period for additional information and program restrictions.

Ric Oberlin

Director of Operations

Drum Corps International

Marching Music's Major League™

well, so much for my order. i'm done ordering dvd's and cd's

[chaos001]

then if nothing else, it's time DCI gets off their ### and offers finals on the Fan Network

AMEN!!! I'm tired of trekking my fat ### up to Indy just to be disappointed with the sound quality. Hopefully it would sound better on FN. Plus, they're missing out on a decent revenue source.

[chaos001]

Point #1:

Some have said that it is DCI's responsibility to acquire the synch rights, not the corps. This may be legally true, but this misses the point everyone else is making. DCI manages a sport. The corps want to be members of the sport. The corps must follow rules laid down by DCI in order to be members of the sport. These rules may include many things that are not in the corps interest per se, but which assist DCI in promoting the sport.

DCI, like any sporting authority, can and must force member corps to comply with policies that promote the activity.

DCI itself should only attempt to acquire synch rights as a service to a corps (possibly paid), not as an acceptance of responsibility. That still must reside with the drum corps.

DCI could, for example, require the corps to accept legal responsibility for all content, in the knowledge that all content will be passed on in the various video and audio products regardless of copyright issues. Any legal costs resulting from judgements, settlements, or lawyers fees will be passed to the corps. In the event DCI chooses to black out content, the corps pays a substantial penalty.

Have you noticed all those times Nascar cars had their sponsor decals blurred on television, because of regional trademark conflicts or local franchise rights conflicts?

Yeah, me neither. If it ever happened, Nascar would not tolerate it for long, that's for sure.

Point #2:

Some have said on other threads that synch rights take a long time. "Weeks or even months" was the phrase, or something similar. This is really not that long, given the time frame of drum corps. A weak solution (compared to the one above) might be, to require all corps to submit their rights requests to DCI no later than say, May 1. Anything submitted before that time that hasn't come through by finals is allowed in and may be blacked out as now. But anything that is submitted after that deadline, that hasn't come through (been agreed to by the rights holder) cannot be played at finals.

So here's a question for Mike Boo to pass along to DCI folks: On what approximate date were the rights for these various products requested to DCI? Let's take the Cadets as an example. What is the date of the formal request by the Cadets to DCI for those rights? Oh, and just to be sure, when was the first inquiry from DCI to the Peanuts rights holders? If either was late, we've found our problem.

Point #3:

Myth: Educational institutions are allowed to use copyrighted material more liberally than commercial entities. When I worked at a media library, it was a given that educators always believe this, but are never right. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know. But the rules were clear: If you show a video to your class, not only are you not allowed to use a copy you taped off the air, you are also not allowed to use a copy you bought fair and square in a store. You must have a public performance license, which is why school districts have video libraries that acquire these rights at great annoyance and expense. And contrary to one poster, it was generally believed that rights holders do in fact go after educational institutions aggressively for violations. (However, the people I worked with were media librarians specializing in copyright for educational use, so they weren't actually lawyers. We could really use an entertainment lawyer's input on this thread.)

And no, I don't believe there are special copyright exceptions for educators selling videos with synched content, since they rarely do this. This issue is pretty much a DCI/WGI issue, other than the occasional graduation video. NCAA sports broadcasts would be related, when the venue plays a jock rock tune. I bet the NCAA either gets the rights or doesn't broadcast it.

Conclusion:

DCI should grow a pair.

On point #3: Unless my early-onset dementia has taken over, doesn't that apply only to groups over a certain size like 40 or 50?

[RockyGranite]

Since I still consider myself a DCI newbie, this whole issue is quite fascinating to me. I ordered the Finals Blu-Ray so that my son can have a record of his rookie year performance and I am relieved to see that the Blue Knights' performance won't be affected. Even though they had recorded content, it appears that they've avoided any kind of rights issues. Thank you, Blue Knights.

After reading this thread, I have a number of questions/comments:

1. I will continue to buy the Blu-Ray as long as my son marches. After that, I don't think the cost will be justified considering the material removed.

2. I encourage the Corps and DCI to make every effort to secure the needed rights. If it's not possible, then perhaps they should consider some rule changes in regard to protected material.

3. That brings me to: It is my understanding that DCI is the individual Corps. That means that any rule changes wouldn't be DCI dictating to the Corps, but rather the Corps dictating to themselves. Am I correct in this understanding?

4. I wonder if what appears to be increasing problem obtaining these rights will increase incidents of people recording live performances? I, myself, have a tablet that does pretty good quality HD recordings. Maybe I'll need to start bringing it to shows that I attend?

5.. Michael Boo...I, for one, truly appreciate and thank you for every post you've made and I'm sorry for the negativity you've experienced in this thread. I sincerely hope you'll continue providing all of us...and especially me...with the knowledge and wit that you give because of your love of Drum Corps.