perc2100 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 How much was the horn, and how much was the player? I was told by a VERY reliable/knowledgeable source that BLAST in general cost around $9 million to produce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Irrelevant. Put the same player first on the trombone and then same part on a baritone. Both versions may be technically excellent but they will sound entirely different. EXACTLY! If the best counter-argument is "But...it's DIFFERENT!!" then there is no valid counter-argument IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Again, if you look at the DCI GE sheets, listen to DCI GE tapes, I think you will find that judges are actually judging to the rubric on the sheets. I think there may be a slight misunderstanding going on between you and Jeff (and now Spandy), in that Jeff was originally referring, at least in part, to DCA's "communication" caption. I think the bigger "problem" (which is not really a problem per say), is that the general public/DCP absolutely does not understand the GE sheets, does not understand judging, does not know how judges are trained, etc. The general public/DCP sees groups THEY LIKE/are entertained by, and assume if judges put another group on top than the judges are wrong, or the sheets are wrong, etc. Would it be fair to say that this is a failure on DCI's part to educate the audience? To help the audience understand why they are wrong and the judges are right? And does your comment here somewhat contradict your comment that judges are part of the audience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Would it be fair to say that this is a failure on DCI's part to educate the audience? To help the audience understand why they are wrong and the judges are right? I don't know; I think in general people latch onto emotions and let that overrule logic. My wife is a HUGE football fan, and when she watches game and the team she's rooting for is struggling, she is always quick to try to find penalties that are not being called. Sometimes I'll point out stuff like, "you're allowed to make contact within the first five yards so that's 100% legal" and she doesn't want to hear that: she just knows the team she likes is not doing well and that upsets her. Judging is one of those things that's complicated, in a sense. All of us make judgement calls about what he like/don't like, what we prefer/don't want to see. Judging, however, is about having sound logic & reasoning for those opinions as they relate to sheets. I think that is what people tend to forget/ignore/misunderstand. I have judged shows that I personally did not like, but the groups played extremely well, and hit many factors of the sheets. Sometimes a group I really like doesn't hit points on the sheets as well as other groups. But in the end EVERYTHING has to relate to the sheets, and I think not enough people get that. As for DCI failing to educate, the sheets are online & easy to access. Recaps for every show go up online quickly for people to analyze. Of course, that's only part of it, but I think DCI does what it can do and if fans prefer to naively analyze with mostly emotion no one can change that. And does your comment here somewhat contradict your comment that judges are part of the audience? Definitely not: judges are unequivocally part of the audience: they have maybe the best seats in the crowd, and see shows from the same vantage point as everyone else (for the most part). They're just more educated about their sheets, and approaching the shows as evaluators (as most of us do on a different level, maybe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterA Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have to say I feel like DCI does very little to explain their judging to the fans of the activity. Things are left very vague. It would be nice to get official statements regarding GE and explaining to the community some of the judging of the activity. It would be nice to publicly hear a judge explain why corps A got a 9.8 and corps B got a 9.3. There are many people here on DCP that are experts in the drum corps world(pun intended). There are many people that have 40 plus years of experience around drum corps. Then there are people on here who had a son or daughter march one year with Racine Scouts, and think they completely understand the system. We have all watched numerous drum corps shows during the season, and most of us at some point have looked at the judges sheets, and wondered what the heck? Were they at the same show i was at? And while in theory one might say the judge is another part of the audience, I would have to disagree with that. A judge has a job, and their job is to judge the area of the corps that is handed to them. If it is a brass judge, it is very hard for them to follow anything but the brass during the course of the show. There may be great visual elements in the corps, or colorguard, but the judge is paid to focus on one small portion of the corps show. The brass judge may see bits and pieces of an amazing colorguard, or hear some great licks by the drumline, but unlike the audience, is not able to enjoy the full show for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have to say I feel like DCI does very little to explain their judging to the fans of the activity. Things are left very vague. It would be nice to get official statements regarding GE and explaining to the community some of the judging of the activity. It would be nice to publicly hear a judge explain why corps A got a 9.8 and corps B got a 9.3. There are many people here on DCP that are experts in the drum corps world(pun intended). There are many people that have 40 plus years of experience around drum corps. Then there are people on here who had a son or daughter march one year with Racine Scouts, and think they completely understand the system. We have all watched numerous drum corps shows during the season, and most of us at some point have looked at the judges sheets, and wondered what the heck? Were they at the same show i was at? While I agree that some general information about judging might be nice, IMO getting into the weeds is far TMI for DCI to attempt. There used to be one-pagers in add books I recall seeing that talked a bit about what judges looked for. Maybe a boilerplate page like that could be sent to show sponsors to include or not include in their add books, as they desire. That would not help with specfics and detail though about this corps versus that corps, but I don't think that is something DCI would even want to try and do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have to say I feel like DCI does very little to explain their judging to the fans of the activity. Things are left very vague. It would be nice to get official statements regarding GE and explaining to the community some of the judging of the activity. It would be nice to publicly hear a judge explain why corps A got a 9.8 and corps B got a 9.3. There are many people here on DCP that are experts in the drum corps world(pun intended). There are many people that have 40 plus years of experience around drum corps. Then there are people on here who had a son or daughter march one year with Racine Scouts, and think they completely understand the system. We have all watched numerous drum corps shows during the season, and most of us at some point have looked at the judges sheets, and wondered what the heck? Were they at the same show i was at? And while in theory one might say the judge is another part of the audience, I would have to disagree with that. A judge has a job, and their job is to judge the area of the corps that is handed to them. If it is a brass judge, it is very hard for them to follow anything but the brass during the course of the show. There may be great visual elements in the corps, or colorguard, but the judge is paid to focus on one small portion of the corps show. The brass judge may see bits and pieces of an amazing colorguard, or hear some great licks by the drumline, but unlike the audience, is not able to enjoy the full show for what it is. I loved when DCI put judge tapes on the Top 6 DVD's. They haven't done that in awhile, unfortunately, but I would be interested in seeing those on Fan Network or something. Did they ever do GE tapes for those? As for doing "very little" to explain judging, I disagree. The last 'major' judging sheet change had a pretty full article not only explaining why they changed & how they changed, but also included the new sheets: http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=5bc74534-fd5c-43c6-a28d-78c928fdd00a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have to say I feel like DCI does very little to explain their judging to the fans of the activity. Things are left very vague. It would be nice to get official statements regarding GE and explaining to the community some of the judging of the activity. It would be nice to publicly hear a judge explain why corps A got a 9.8 and corps B got a 9.3. There are many people here on DCP that are experts in the drum corps world(pun intended). There are many people that have 40 plus years of experience around drum corps. Then there are people on here who had a son or daughter march one year with Racine Scouts, and think they completely understand the system. We have all watched numerous drum corps shows during the season, and most of us at some point have looked at the judges sheets, and wondered what the heck? Were they at the same show i was at? And while in theory one might say the judge is another part of the audience, I would have to disagree with that. A judge has a job, and their job is to judge the area of the corps that is handed to them. If it is a brass judge, it is very hard for them to follow anything but the brass during the course of the show. There may be great visual elements in the corps, or colorguard, but the judge is paid to focus on one small portion of the corps show. The brass judge may see bits and pieces of an amazing colorguard, or hear some great licks by the drumline, but unlike the audience, is not able to enjoy the full show for what it is. Also, I think fans look at shows, assess what they like, and then like to do arbitrary numbers & placements that often have no basis in logic. Seeing comments like, "I would have the placements: Cavaliers - 98.5; Scouts - 97.1; Crown - 97" etc, with maybe a very broad explanation on why they like/dislike shows. You're right that judges look at very narrow scope for their number, and then all numbers are added & averaged for a final score. I think a lot of people don't think about that type of thing, or maybe think in terms like, "they had some cool drill moves but came in 3rd in GE vis, WTH?!" without realizing there are many factors on the GE sheets 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Also, I think fans look at shows, assess what they like, and then like to do arbitrary numbers & placements that often have no basis in logic. Seeing comments like, "I would have the placements: Cavaliers - 98.5; Scouts - 97.1; Crown - 97" etc, with maybe a very broad explanation on why they like/dislike shows. You're right that judges look at very narrow scope for their number, and then all numbers are added & averaged for a final score. I think a lot of people don't think about that type of thing, or maybe think in terms like, "they had some cool drill moves but came in 3rd in GE vis, WTH?!" without realizing there are many factors on the GE sheets Honestly, I have come around to align with those that think the vast majority of the fans don't care how the scores are created. Beyond the typical "40% GE, 30% ensemble, 30% performance," I think additional explanation would likely be whistling into the wind. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 ^^^^^^ What Mike said. I would contend that we, here, are the only ones among a very few who care as much about scores as the corps do. Most "judging" by fans stops at "I like that", or "Ooh, that was nice", or "Time for a hotdog". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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