Stu Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Dude, I'm agreeing with you. It's jacked up. The reason it's jacked up is because of money. As are/could be academic institutions. Are you really that biased? Wow, we agree on something! That is.... something! Anyway, the problem, I think, is twofold: 1) The DCI activity and DCI corps have become a money sucking grand national major behemoth touring system that takes millions and millions of dollars per year to operate, yet the revenue stream for many, if not most, corps has not been able to keep up; and 2) Instead of the activity and corps contracting to being sustainable based on the available revenue stream, or finding a way to feasibly increase the revenue stream to sustain the growth, youth dues have gotten higher, and higher, and, higher... And it is to the point the kids and parents are so over taxed many corps collapse in on themselves; or in the cases I am referring to, kids and parents via the current tier system are being milked, and milked, and milked, for fees through continuous invites back to camps; but after many, many camps a lot of them are eventually told, “Well, ya just didn’t quite make it to tier 1 and contracted this year; but please come back again next November”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Hmmmm…. so as long as a drum corps is reliant mainly on youth fees for survival, that is a valid reason for them to sweet talk kids for months and months on end, milking high fees from the kids each month; then after many months, and a lot of expended resources from the kids given over to the corps, at that point telling the kids sorry, nope, you did not make it; try again next year. That system is valid and acceptable as long as the corps needs the dough from as many kids as possible to survive? Okey Dokey then; there is only one conclusion we can draw there, which is what a nice and lovely system those corps have is in looking out for the best interest of the youth!!!! You really think corps are milking kids and stringing them along for the few bucks they make at camps? A person who attends the 4th Cadet camp, for instance, pays $50 for that camp...stringing the person along to the 5th camp brings in another $25 for that camp. Out of that come all the expenses for the camps. BTW...the Cadet parent handbook talks about the tiers, and specifically make mention of a tier 3 student possibly marching in another corps. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 In these thought experiments we start with an activity and we ask people what defines it for them. We are not asking what the definition of it is. And at the same time the way people define an activity can NOT be reversed engineered to imply something else. What defines this apple? It's delicious taste and red color. It does not then follow that all things that are delicious and have a red color (like strawberries) can be called apples. A implies B but B does not imply C just because C could also be derived from B. Ok; let’s get this back to defining the way we typically differentiate drum corps from marching band and how it is unique from marching band. I will use a piece of fruit to cite the example: If a person has never seen or tasted a tangerine; and that person asks someone who loves tangerines to describe it. If they are told, “Well, hmmm… it is hard to describe, but a tangerine is a very, very intense orange which is a citrus fruit that grows on trees in sub-tropical climates, orange in color on both the outside and inside, it is round in shape, and it is way more delicious and sweet than an orange when bitten into”. Would it not be logical for that person to conclude that an orange and a tangerine are actually pretty much the same except that one is just more intense than the other? Sort of like when a corps fan is asked to describe the activity of DCI drum corps by a non-initiated person, and that fan starts off with, “Well, hmmm... it’s hard to describe, but DCI drum corps is Marching Band on steroids, and…” Would not the non-initiated person come away thinking that DCI drum corps and Marching band is actually the same except that one is just more intense than the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) You really think corps are milking kids and stringing them along for the few bucks they make at camps? A person who attends the 4th Cadet camp, for instance, pays $50 for that camp...stringing the person along to the 5th camp brings in another $25 for that camp. Out of that come all the expenses for the camps. BTW...the Cadet parent handbook talks about the tiers, and specifically make mention of a tier 3 student possibly marching in another corps. Did I 'specifically' accuse the Cadets? Also, you are not factoring in the travel expenses to and from the camps if that kid is from North Dakota and flying in to all five of those camps. Edited April 1, 2014 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) Ok; let’s get this back to defining the way we typically differentiate drum corps from marching band and how it is unique from marching band. I will use a piece of fruit to cite the example: If a person has never seen or tasted a tangerine; and that person asks someone who loves tangerines to describe it. If they are told, “Well, hmmm… it is hard to describe, but a tangerine is a very, very intense orange which is a citrus fruit that grows on trees in sub-tropical climates, orange in color on both the outside and inside, it is round in shape, and it is way more delicious and sweet than an orange when bitten into”. Would it not be logical for that person to conclude that an orange and a tangerine are actually pretty much the same except that one is just more intense than the other? Sort of like when a corps fan is asked to describe the activity of DCI drum corps by a non-initiated person, and that fan starts off with, “Well, hmmm... it’s hard to describe, but DCI drum corps is Marching Band on steroids, and…” Would not the non-initiated person come away thinking that DCI drum corps and Marching band is actually the same except that one is just more intense than the other? We're not talking about definitions. We're talking about how people involved with drum corps define the activity for themselves. I would expect someone like yourself to know the subtle difference of the context. And the uninitiated person will come away with that idea if that is how it was described to them. There are other ways to describe it though, each leaving the uninitiated person with a different idea of drum corps. Edited April 1, 2014 by charlie1223 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) We're not talking about definitions. Ummmm…. Yes we are talking about ‘Definitions’. The title of this thread is: What ‘Defines’ our Activity and the poll question asks us what the activity is ‘defined’ by. So, we certainly are talking about ‘Definitions”. We're talking about how people involved with drum corps define the activity for themselves. I would expect someone like yourself to know the subtle difference of the context. And the uninitiated person will come away with that idea if that is how it was described to them. There are other ways to describe it though, each leaving the uninitiated person with a different idea of drum corps. The conundrum was created when, in the very first posting, the title and poll question were both skewed by the OP into a completely different issue of how the activity is 'distinguished' from other activities which is not synonymous with ‘defining’ the activity; and then the OP even further skewed the title and the poll question by stating that how we 'interpret' drum and bugle corps is completely left up to us. There is vast difference between describing the personal experience someone gets from engaging in an activity which 'distinguishes' it, along with 'interpreting' drum corps drum corps in their own way, and actually 'defining' the activity... like, um, what was actually proposed in the title of the thread and the poll question. Edited April 1, 2014 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Did I 'specifically' accuse the Cadets? Also, you are not factoring in the travel expenses to and from the camps if that kid is from North Dakota and flying in to all five of those camps. Travel expenses are NOT milking the kids for money to fund the corps, as you accused them of doing above. I looked at one corps as an example, the Cadets. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Travel expenses are NOT milking the kids for money to fund the corps, as you accused them of doing above. The staff of any corps continuously asking a tier 2 kid back again, and again, and again, and again are fully aware that the kid could use the money they are spending on expensive flights Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr going to a another corps in which that kid would likelier be accepted as a tier 1 contracted member. And that, to me, is still a form of stringing a tier 2 kid along. Imagine if a kid was trying to get on the football squad or into the music department at a university, and that kid was asked to fly in month, after month, after month in the same manner; spending lots of money on all those flights just to be told after five or six months sorry, you did not make the squad or make it into the music department. All heck would break loose if that happened, and that institution certainly would be blasted by the kid, the parents, the alumni, and the community for stringing that kid along; guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sorry, but your position does not seem to be stable because: a)The dictionary definition you used stated ‘a group of persons’, so that blows your attempt at rubber-band out the window; b) also, if you are appealing to the dictionary, yes it stated 'organized'; however you, on your own, injected the words 'with no prior or continuing'. The dictionary definition you quoted never stated it had to have prior or continuing existence; and c) The Brazilian ensembles certainly do 'organize and rehearse' before doing the parade, and the second-line musicians certainly do 'organize and run through' the dirge music and the celebratory music before engaging in the procession. So it appears that your dictionary definition would call them bands. Wanna try again? No, there is no point. Just tell us, since rubber bands are not "bands", what should we call them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Wow, we agree on something! That is.... something! Anyway, the problem, I think, is twofold: 1) The DCI activity and DCI corps have become a money sucking grand national major behemoth touring system that takes millions and millions of dollars per year to operate, yet the revenue stream for many, if not most, corps has not been able to keep up; and 2) Instead of the activity and corps contracting to being sustainable based on the available revenue stream, or finding a way to feasibly increase the revenue stream to sustain the growth, youth dues have gotten higher, and higher, and, higher... And it is to the point the kids and parents are so over taxed many corps collapse in on themselves; or in the cases I am referring to, kids and parents via the current tier system are being milked, and milked, and milked, for fees through continuous invites back to camps; but after many, many camps a lot of them are eventually told, “Well, ya just didn’t quite make it to tier 1 and contracted this year; but please come back again next November”. You may not like it (neither do I), but as long as there is a market for the experience of being in winter camps with no promise of corps membership, someone will serve that market. For that matter, dues may rise to whatever level the market will bear. Judging from audition numbers now compared to 15-20 years ago, the market is bearing it just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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