charlie1223 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 " word salad " ? I need a degreed narrator or a highly experienced wordsmith now to figure out what " word salad ' means. Is it some of the greens we find in gardens... but maybe you add a vowel to it ? The sheep languished blue trains suffer. Obey space cat disjointed languages swearing admit stranger bit dressing. Sensibly effort compound bed bubble. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The point was (and is) that they managed to do all those thing without any sort of academic training (which is where Brasso was trying and failing to hang his hat). I'm actually in your camp -- not a big fan of narration -- because too often narration is used to fill in a weakness in the design instead of otherwise. "Works" is a really nice shorthand for good design and effect (as defined by the sheets of course :-) ) Many MORE folks were irritated by BD's pre-recorded narration but that doesn't mean it wasn't effective. Seems I'm normally in your camp corpsband, but just pointing out that there is academic training on these points, except for the rifle bit; and then there are excepted bodies where training is derived. It's all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 -1 irrelevant -2 irrelevant -3 "not less than" must be" greater than or equal". so you're correct..he said equal or MORE qualified than a DCI judge. -1 dodge -2 dodge -3 dodge Seriously - you are still going to ignore that his claim only applies to judging narration, not the entire scope of DCI judging? and again all of you have avoided replying to any of the points i posed. Oh, sorry - was not aware there was an obligation to reply to all your points of contention. But if you insist: Uggh. I see we're still spiraling downward. 1. You *did* say a 12 yr is equally qualified as a DCI judge. So -- while it's silly -- the silliness is entirely contained your statement. There you go again wandering off in to fantasyland. I thought you stayed away from that place? Already addressed this. 2. Judges do indeed have experience and training which equips them to judge narration as part of the show. They've seen it used well and used poorly in many previous shows in various venues and circuits. Seeing it previously might count as experience, but not training. Do DCI judges have vocal training as a prerequisite to judging the captions that evaluate it? 3. If it takes no special skill to narrate, why do some "voice actors" get paid so well just to exercise their vocal cords? Ridiculous assertion. I have no argument with you there. 4. The Crown performers were not just counting but frequently performing complex vocal music (yeah there were pitches in addition to the rhythm. Of course SINGING only requires vocal cords and any person off the street has those , right? Doesn't require any special training or talent either, right? ) There is a good point in here. I disagree with the word "frequently", though, as from what I recall, most of the verbal content was electronically triggered. The drum feature segment, however, was performed live by several vocalists singing numbers in a rapid, odd meter with changing chords. This segment was wickedly difficult, IMO. I cannot recite the words that fast, much less sing them in tune. On the other hand, even the Crown performers were overly challenged in that regard, as I heard numerous instances of skipped words and out-of-tune chords when I saw them live. I can only speculate on whether the judges are evaluating those things. At the same time, I wondered why Crown percussion scoring seemed a bit more harsh than what I was hearing from the people with sticks in their hands. Is it because the vocal performance issues were also accounted for by percussion judges? 5. Adjudicating the narrative part of Crown's (or any show) is NOT a matter of 'liking' or 'disliking'. Effect judges are tasked with evaluating how well (or poorly) the narration fits into the overall design. Does it "work" and does it fail to "work". Timing, articulation, balance -- all of these things matter. In an ideal world, judges leave their preconceived notions and personal preferences aside and judge to the criteria. If you ever find this ideal world, please let me know where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The sheep languished blue trains suffer. Obey space cat disjointed languages swearing admit stranger bit dressing. Sensibly effort compound bed bubble. Lo and behold this makes as much sense as some of the other postings we read on here ( lol!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I don't think the Toast Masters criteria hinged on whether the judge "liked" the speech or not, there were a lot of distinct categories. I think its easy for anyone to point out a great speaker, and an effective speech. But if you're trying to choose between 10 of the best speakers and rank them in order with numbers... that's more challenging and that does require some level of training. And I think you proved that narration does require talent (right after you said it didn't). Public Speaking is not easy, in fact, what narrators do on DCI field is equivalent to what actors do on stage and I don't think you would say that that doesn't require talent! I'm a Toastmasters club member, and have judged numerous contests.... not the World Championship contest (yet!!! LOL) ... but the rules for the contests, at all levels leading up to the World Championship, are the same. Specific criteria, in a variety of categories/subcategories, need to be met. I've found that the explanation of the rules/criteria are quite helpful in terms of being able to put aside any personal feelings toward a given speaker and focus solely on the speech being given. And yes... like a drum corps judge... I've found myself "leaving room" on the judging sheet if, say, the first speaker of the evening (the speaker order is chosen by random draw) is outstanding. I don't give them a perfect score, in case a speaker later in the lineup is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I've also "marked down" some speakers who give a great presentation... excellent voice quality, solid style, etc., but who have not met the criteria specific to that particular contest. As per the contest rules/criteria, I have no choice but to do so. What this has to do with anything important going on in the world, I don't know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) Seems I'm normally in your camp corpsband, but just pointing out that there is academic training on these points, except for the rifle bit; and then there are excepted bodies where training is derived. It's all good. There's academic training in marching/visual? SOME folks have academic training in graphic design, or theater, but there are also several who do not. You can be a GE Visual or Visual DCI judge and not be academically trained in visual. I know one such judge that is a Band Director, and received plenty of training academically in music but zero in visual. He got his "training" as a MM, and then as an instructor (not a designer). It would be curious to see the bios of DCI judges. I think WGI has that to an extent, at least for some of their judges. Would be curious to see DCI to similar, just for curiosity's sake. Edited May 1, 2014 by perc2100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 There's academic training in marching/visual? SOME folks have academic training in graphic design, or theater, but there are also several who do not. You can be a GE Visual or Visual DCI judge and not be academically trained in visual. I know one such judge that is a Band Director, and received plenty of training academically in music but zero in visual. He got his "training" as a MM, and then as an instructor (not a designer). It would be curious to see the bios of DCI judges. I think WGI has that to an extent, at least for some of their judges. Would be curious to see DCI to similar, just for curiosity's sake. many people go through the trials in WGI and DCI and then there are many who based on ( proven, successful )experience get fast tracked right to judging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietcity Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) The question that keeps coming to me is: what particular artistic problem does narration purport to solve? I mean, what is lacking in a good drum corps show that narration can address? In the wide world of the music, what place does narration have? Very little, I think. How many great works of music include narration? I can think of just a few middling pieces of classical music that included narration (Copland's "Lincoln Portrait", Saint-Saëns "Carnival of the Animals"). But most of the great composers over the centuries managed to get by without resorting to spoken word to get their point across. In drum corps, narration is being done just because it can be done. But it brings almost nothing artistic to the activity. Edited May 1, 2014 by quietcity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 most of the great composers over the centuries managed to get by without resorting to spoken work to get their point across. That was the whole idea, ie..... to communicate to people thru the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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