Is Drum Corps International doing a "good job?"

[Jeff Ream]

I don't think this is accurate at all, but I'm going to ask to verify.

The Oil Can people went to significant expense to hang those black tarps back field but, as I understand it, the acoustics of the stadium were designed to increase the thunderous goo because that goo goes well with football.

I've never heard that LOS agreed to allow consultation about acoustics in the engineering design of the stadium. Realistically, DCI's event is very small potatoes compared to hosting the Super Bowl.

But I'll inquire anyway...

if I recall they asked for input then did their thing. Remember this was a place they crowed about the retractable roof, then decided to not put in drainage guaranteeing the roof is almost always closed.

given that Indiana is thunderstorm city in august every year, they put way too much hype out about this, and it gave them a black eye.

[BRASSO]

Let's discuss whether our view of DCI is positive or negative? And yes, you have to pick one!

Well it appears that the DCP'ers on here are giving pretty positive approval marks for DCI with approval numbers the current President and the US Congress would die for right now.

[cixelsyd]

I don't think this is accurate at all, but I'm going to ask to verify.

The Oil Can people went to significant expense to hang those black tarps back field but, as I understand it, the acoustics of the stadium were designed to increase the thunderous goo because that goo goes well with football.

I've never heard that LOS agreed to allow consultation about acoustics in the engineering design of the stadium. Realistically, DCI's event is very small potatoes compared to hosting the Super Bowl.

But I'll inquire anyway...

I know there was a public statement made claiming that both DCI and BOA would have input in the stadium design process with acoustics in mind. I believe it was included in the announcement Dan Acheson delivered in Madison on August 8, 2006.

Here are the pertinent parts of a follow-up article on DCI.org the next day:

Does this location mean that DCI is becoming an indoor activity?

No. What it means is that the DCI World Championships can never be rained out. The creative program designers of Drum Corps International member corps are the best in the world at what they do. DCI has no doubt that they will maximize all of the opportunities which this new venue will provide, and they will continue to create dazzling programs which will challenge their students while enabling them to continue to achieve the highest levels of excellence.

With the 2008 Drum Corps International World Championships currently scheduled as the first event to be held in the new Lucas Oil Stadium, we will be integrally involved with the creation of the standards for acoustics in the facility.

Will the retractable roof at Lucas Oil Stadium be open or closed for Drum Corps International events?

It is too early to tell what exactly will happen when the roof is open or closed, and every option and related consequence will be explored and evaluated. It is DCI’s expectation at this point in time, that whenever the weather allows, the roof will be kept open.

For example, if high humidity or high temperatures may detract from the experience of the performers and fans, DCI may choose to close the roof for comfort and/or safety considerations. That these options are even within the realm of consideration are tremendous assets for DCI in the production of the most elite marching music competitions in the world.

If conditions require DCI to keep the roof closed, there are provisions being made to create the best possible acoustical environment indoors. DCI will also be cooperating with acoustical modeling and sound testing of the stadium during the construction phase whenever called upon to do so.

How can DCI do this, without knowing what drum corps will sound like inside the stadium?

DCI did not research what the sound would be like in Denver, Foxboro, or the newly renovated Camp Randall Stadium and has produced highly successful events in those venues. In all cases, there were and will be acoustical challenges.

The experience DCI has had now in three domes gives the organization significant confidence that a hard structure retractable roof will allow for a successful acoustical event, sight unseen. If the acoustics are indeed a problem at Lucas Oil Stadium, remedies to DCI’s satisfaction are included as a part of the agreement.

[garfield]

I know there was a public statement made claiming that both DCI and BOA would have input in the stadium design process with acoustics in mind. I believe it was included in the announcement Dan Acheson delivered in Madison on August 8, 2006.

Here are the pertinent parts of a follow-up article on DCI.org the next day:

This seems to be the sentence that is the basis of your belief that this announcement means DCI had a hand and input in the acoustical design of LOS:

"...we will be integrally involved with the creation of the standards for acoustics in the facility."

But I think you misunderstand the wording. It reads to me that DCI had a hand in setting the acoustic standards, nothing more. That doesn't say they worked closely with the design engineers who crafted the building. It simply says DCI will set acoustic standards.

Then in the last line:

"If the acoustics are indeed a problem at Lucas Oil Stadium, remedies to DCI’s satisfaction are included as a part of the agreement."

I take that to mean that DCI, wisely, wrote their concerns into contract. Then, when the acoustics stunk, LOS followed the contract by asking what solutions DCI would consider viable, analyzed the cost/benefit/legal viability of the request, and agreed to hang the curtains.

Stu suggests that LOS had some contractual obligation to seek building acoustical design input from DCI, and that when that input was ignored it represents some sort of breech of contract.

I believe that DCI wrote a good contract that allowed them an avenue for resolution to the "boominess" of the stadium (desired at football games, right?) when and if it occurred. It did, and we have curtains. I think it would be hard to substantiate that DCI was wronged contractually in this case.

Edited May 16, 2014 by garfield

[HockeyDad]

I would travel to Ohio Stadium for a dci championship before I would waste one dollar on an event in the goo zone that is an indoor stadium. Forgive me ghost of Bo.

[garfield]

if I recall they asked for input then did their thing. Remember this was a place they crowed about the retractable roof, then decided to not put in drainage guaranteeing the roof is almost always closed.

given that Indiana is thunderstorm city in august every year, they put way too much hype out about this, and it gave them a black eye.

(A trip into Garfield's warped dream state...)

LOS: "Hey! DCI! Our engineers have figured out a design that cranks up the volume and reverb in the stadium making our sell-out football crowds excited with noise. Isn't that great?"

DCI: "Uh, no. That doesn't work for us and, ya' know, we have a contract."

LOS: Huh? Really? Hmmm. What would you like to see?"

DCI: Less steel and glass, more cloth to absorb and deaden the sound.

LOS: (huddled in the corner with a calculator) "Football - hundreds of million of dollars. DCI - umm, several hundred thousand dollars? Don't really know... they say... but it's only band... (Huddle breaks)

LOS: Okay! So how's this? We build the stadium to our specs then, if the sound sucks, we'll find a way to hang cloth all over the place to deaden the sound. We've got this dollar price we can realistically spend, but we promise to take action and actually do some of the solution you'd like to see. Waddya think?

One could misinterpret this as being "...they asked for input then did their thing.", right?

Same with the roof. I know we've all talked about the roof being open, but I haven't seen any proof yet that DCI was promised they'd have an open roof and, if LOS knew they'd not have drainage, wouldn't it be foolish to promise it?

I suspect that LOS discovered the cost, made the change, and DCI was the victim of unintended consequences. Ask this: How nefarious could it have been when the building was designed and built with a roof that opens. Had LOS known all along that they had no intention of opening the roof with no drainage, why would build it with a roof that opens? Snow melts to water, but a stadium-full of football fans tilts the "risk" equation of opening the roof hard in favor of taking the chance. Taking the same risk in the summer with 1/3 capacity revenue probably isn't.

[garfield]

I would travel to Ohio Stadium for a dci championship before I would waste one dollar on an event in the goo zone that is an indoor stadium. Forgive me ghost of Bo.

From your mouth to God's ears. Will never happen of course.

And I should think you'd appreciate the opportunity to sit in a nice football stadium. Rather like splurging and staying at the Ritz instead of the usual and boring Holiday Inn on your home turf.

[cixelsyd]

This seems to be the sentence that is the basis of your belief that this announcement means DCI had a hand and input in the acoustical design of LOS:

"...we will be integrally involved with the creation of the standards for acoustics in the facility."

But I think you misunderstand the wording. It reads to me that DCI had a hand in setting the acoustic standards, nothing more. That doesn't say they worked closely with the design engineers who crafted the building. It simply says DCI will set acoustic standards.

Again, the basis of my belief is that, at the time, I heard that both DCI and BOA would have input in the design phase of LOS. I do not remember how I received that particular bit of news. Admittedly, it may have been secondhand, as the announcement was made at a press conference staged at the RCA Dome for which I was not present. Nevertheless, I think it was public knowledge.

Stu suggests that LOS had some contractual obligation to seek building acoustical design input from DCI, and that when that input was ignored it represents some sort of breech of contract.

I believe that DCI wrote a good contract that allowed them an avenue for resolution to the "boominess" of the stadium (desired at football games, right?) when and if it occurred. It did, and we have curtains. I think it would be hard to substantiate that DCI was wronged contractually in this case.

Breach of contract? No. Even if there was a contractual obligation to obtain "input" from DCI (and BOA) regarding acoustics, there was also input from other interested parties (i.e. the Indianapolis Colts).

Acheson sums this up nicely in a Drum Corps World interview published in December 2008:

I would imagine there has not been, nor will there ever be, a sports facility constructed with so much concern regarding acoustics. Because of this attention and the importance of marching bands and drum corps to the city of Indianapolis and the Lucas Oil Stadium management, much has been considered and implemented in the design and construction of the building.

There is a goal line-to-goal line, 70-foot-high curtain that can be hung backfield; there are what they refer to as “downsizing curtains” that can be lowered to close off the upper deck on the back sidelines; they have the north end windows and the retractable roof; and there are other design elements contributing to the overall acoustic experience.

All this with one fact to keep in mind: the primary tenant of the building is the Indianapolis Colts and they like it to be loud in there . . . especially when the opponent is trying to move the ball on third down! But, they also need to generate revenue when the Colts are not in the stadium, so it is in their best interest to make sure concerts sound good, as well as the marching bands and drum corps performing in this venue.

I hold no illusions about DCI experts standing at the drafting board, literally designing the stadium for us. I am only pointing out that this "input" they claimed to have in the process was one of the factors touted in defending the whole Indy deal.

[garfield]

Again, the basis of my belief is that, at the time, I heard that both DCI and BOA would have input in the design phase of LOS. I do not remember how I received that particular bit of news. Admittedly, it may have been secondhand, as the announcement was made at a press conference staged at the RCA Dome for which I was not present. Nevertheless, I think it was public knowledge.

Breach of contract? No. Even if there was a contractual obligation to obtain "input" from DCI (and BOA) regarding acoustics, there was also input from other interested parties (i.e. the Indianapolis Colts).

Acheson sums this up nicely in a Drum Corps World interview published in December 2008:

I hold no illusions about DCI experts standing at the drafting board, literally designing the stadium for us. I am only pointing out that this "input" they claimed to have in the process was one of the factors touted in defending the whole Indy deal.

Pretty compelling stuff, right there.

And it sounds like LOS did exactly what Dan said they would.

The roof and end zone windows opening angle was nixed with the drainage issue, I suppose. But it still doesn't sound to me like LOS has failed in delivering the acoustic solutions for this sizable Indy music crowd.

Maybe I'm being thrown off track by Stu's contention that DCI has some remedy for breaking the contract and moving even if they wanted to do so.

And I'm not convinced that they want to.

[Jeff Ream]

(A trip into Garfield's warped dream state...)

LOS: "Hey! DCI! Our engineers have figured out a design that cranks up the volume and reverb in the stadium making our sell-out football crowds excited with noise. Isn't that great?"

DCI: "Uh, no. That doesn't work for us and, ya' know, we have a contract."

LOS: Huh? Really? Hmmm. What would you like to see?"

DCI: Less steel and glass, more cloth to absorb and deaden the sound.

LOS: (huddled in the corner with a calculator) "Football - hundreds of million of dollars. DCI - umm, several hundred thousand dollars? Don't really know... they say... but it's only band... (Huddle breaks)

LOS: Okay! So how's this? We build the stadium to our specs then, if the sound sucks, we'll find a way to hang cloth all over the place to deaden the sound. We've got this dollar price we can realistically spend, but we promise to take action and actually do some of the solution you'd like to see. Waddya think?

One could misinterpret this as being "...they asked for input then did their thing.", right?

Same with the roof. I know we've all talked about the roof being open, but I haven't seen any proof yet that DCI was promised they'd have an open roof and, if LOS knew they'd not have drainage, wouldn't it be foolish to promise it?

I suspect that LOS discovered the cost, made the change, and DCI was the victim of unintended consequences. Ask this: How nefarious could it have been when the building was designed and built with a roof that opens. Had LOS known all along that they had no intention of opening the roof with no drainage, why would build it with a roof that opens? Snow melts to water, but a stadium-full of football fans tilts the "risk" equation of opening the roof hard in favor of taking the chance. Taking the same risk in the summer with 1/3 capacity revenue probably isn't.

if you read the announcement from Dan A, he mentions the roof being open. I believe it was even mentioned again after the outcry in 09 with sound issues.

the bottom line is that regardless of sound, cloth you name it.....no drainage system. None. if you open it, a shower pops up, and you have to close it, it takes what 10-15 minutes to close....and you could have a swamp.

ergo, depsite the teases if not outright promises they'd try it, it'll never happen.

And, IMO, you can pray they'll try it, but with those big windows at the top going up to the roof, sound will most likely suck when open too.

I'm sure DCI got a great deal. Good for them.I'm glad attendance was up last year, as it was in 11. Now....will this year follow 10 and 12, or will it be 11 and 13? time will tell.

But please, don't underestimate that fans are unhappy with Indy for either sound, or tired of the place reasons. Though allentown should send a love note to Indy....people's displeasure with the place has ben a boon for their ticket sales