GUARDLING Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 And the new DCI Idol is..... Taylor Hicks.......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 why is DCI scared to death? I cannot answer that - but you sure can, judging from your previous posts on the topic. your last line is merely an opinion and also an assumption that audience appeal doesnt change night to night...it does , sometimes drastically...and more effective than who?...we are judged against each other......also , in this activity,...there was a time...longggggggggggggggggggggggggg before you ever heard of drum corps ( hate to admit I was there ..lol ) that the activity thought everything was measurable ( the tic system ) it was a hot mess then...worse than now....it was still all subjective..........sure you can seperate real bad from real good but anything in the neighborhood of either became extremely subjective well some would say WE dont...judges do...others who need to judge will always be in or out of the perspection of the actual judge or even the person next to them..............I think when judging is involved spectators as well as those directly involved will NEVER quite understand or agree . The skating world is going through the exact same thing at the moment. what do you actually think is going to change...nothing..........................fan vote is fine as long as it has nothing to do with score........fan votes dont mean the best wins just political.alkt....nothing is different nor will it change any outcomes IMO no matter what sheets change to...winners know how to win..plain and simple...youre right..nothing will change but then the judges wouldn't understand some of the shows! disaster.....5% would change outcomes and also make it nothing more than a popularity contest which could have nothing to do with who is best kinda interesting that many from BITD now dont want to be spectators but want to judge..hmmmmmmm not saying you in particular , there are some who want it to be what it was ..well it never was a spectator judged event......dont get why someone would want to get involved in a judging position rather than sit and enjoy.....or why those who feel the need to judge havent done just that.....if people want a fan favorite ( which maybe can be done at a regionals ) not local shows I guess it can be ok...but NEVER with the power to change placements.................................If thats what the activity becomes, then there is a heck of alot that would have to change throughout the entire activity...ALOT!........hey to each his own................I love it when im at a show ( winter or summer " where i DONT have to " Judge something "....lol got a question..being we have a pretty good dialog at times..lol.....which shows arent likeable?..ok we know BD is topping that list , although it doesnt seem to hurt in the membership department..so kids must like their approach..( which todays member is tomorrows spectator..hopefully...how things could really change if you think about that )..who else? and isnt there enough out there for someone who hates something to like another?..I would think so ..we all didnt like everything bitd either..we just didnt have a computer and a keyboard to express it...the good and BAD of that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Continued from previous post: sure it makes sense I wouldnt care at a regional....for sxxxx and giggles if it were done at a regional..as long as it had nothing to do with scoring..but you examples you sited and how things become a wash and you show to show, year to year etc etc..kinda makes the whole things useless..unless Im not gettting it...........yeah the internet is great for education unless ( more often than not) it becomes a place for the person who wouldnt dare say what they do face to face..or it became a place where the person who really didnt have a voice for many reasons has one now......not saying it about anyone in particular..just the internet in general...in theory its a great thing but actually..it is an entertaining thing..lol.........and thanks..i enjoy your posts also being open minded to change is good...if you want to make it a popularity contest thats fine ( wont ever happeen but ok ) then change all the rules and the activity. dont expect it to stay the same...and dont assume the best corps will win, thats for sure. Also how can you say ANY amount wont change outcomes...even if it were a few tenths...tell that to anyone...12th place could be out....1st down to 3rd..all on a whim and the fan fav. of the night..insanity IMO.......feedback is one thing outcomes are another...have a vote for fav of the night at a regional...fine no problem..outcomes NEVER..people can text it in and find out at the end of the night..............I think I would maybe also put the result on the DCI website not announce it that night....why take away from the kid who actually won. totally agree.....what some forget hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars are also spent.....its not just unfair to those who achieve over those who happen top have a few more fans in the stands its a money issue also....im not saying spending more money should be given a higher spot ( those who want to jump on that ) BUT alot is spent in the activity and shouldnt be fooled around with..and thats what would be happening.........BUT as I have said before if one wants to make it just a popularity contest and change it all ..whatever..(...just remember winners know how to win and those at top would find a way to stay there...it doesnt happen by chance....never did you dont leave random placement based or who happens to be in the stands on a given night....tell the kid who was better ( which you dont respond to ) that mommy and daddy..or a pack of maybe my older friends or some band moms ( pick your choice ) showed up , so thats they the other corps won...not because they were better. there's much more at stake for alot of people, than to leave things up to chance.......................if Im not getting what youre saying ,, please explain and I appologise then change is good..maybe not always BUT if as you say GE is a problem with x amount of individuals throwing a few thousands more into the mix making decisions...with NO criteria or guidelines ....how does that fix it? discussion doesnt mean fact at all....I agree some new blood is needed .....is it random? ..i dont think so BUT at least they are heald to some sort of criteria..and if they suggest anything to a corps then seen again there are ways to hold people accountable..if not to them to a caption head....how do you do that with a crowd....how do you move on one night based on whatever and move to the next thing...what info is given...random nights? random people? random experience? random random random...i dont or at least would be shocked if it ever happend anyway.......maybe a fan vote..making a decision or given some points...I would say NEVER , hopefully....but I also have learned never say never Yeah an entire audience is going to judge like that...by the way GE is way more than you just mentioned and how it relates to all aspects of all areas and yes it can be emotional engagement but can be much more than the obvious......and Im not debating the sheets nor the interpretation of them with you .or what you think they mean or should.....maybe we can hand sheets out and you can teach a class for DCI to each audience on WHAT GE IS and HOW TO JUDGE IT.........hey GE is hard enough for judges.....help them out too I'm sure they would appreciate the input..there are many very experienced people in here ( DCP ) that constantly ask how GE is judged and what it all means and what people see or dont......explain it to them........you would be good at that .. ...or better yet........maybe the parents in the stands can educate them ..on the subject.......being that you feel it would be just fine. or better yet the audience can do a clinic for a corps and staff so that they can be educated so they know what to do and how to get that ENGAGEMENT , 5% of a score can change things drastically...even it were .05..that can change everything...you can have a corps 1 night somewhere that are madison fans and their vote is off the charts then the very next night when all the madison fans arent there all of a sudden they arent close ..how does that help in being consistent with the people who are performing, teaching etc etc... We got away from random judging with the tic system when judges only excuse for doing something was " I called it like I saw it " man did that suck and if you look back at scores from that time corps were 1st one night and 5th the next and everything in between...now there are many here who THINK that was exciting competition..oh yeah sure....guessing every night...and knowing how to work off the feedback...yeah it was a hot mess......................as far as accountability...( trying to put it in one post..lol..sorry ) one can contact a caption head and discuss issues if need be...one create a dialog if need be...granted not everyone gets the same attention ( which is wrong ) BUT it is a way at least....is it less than before? maybe, should there be more? probably.................dont know if Im making my point..hope so..I totally get why you think it could be a good thing, Ive look at it from your point..now try to ,look from this point...maybe theres not meeting in the middle other than a fan vote ( like WGI at championships ) which is posted on the web site After but has nothing to do or influence any outcomes ok so if youre saying that I AM SAYING the G7 PUT more butts in seats...Which I didnt say but anyway and who do YOU think are putting butts in seats? and all you do is argue why SPECTATORS should judge but never address all the reasons i give you why I think it would be a a horrible idea....other than a vote with NO points attached. what would it prove? whos the better corps?...hardly whos a fan fav?....ok so....and no it wouldnt just who happens to be in the stands that night. that people would get what they are exactly judging ( criteria ) without bias?...haha..yeah ok empowerment?...ok...falsely but yes it could do that i suppose please explain...im very ready to listen...as well as others im sure oh please...spectators arent beneath..just cant know the ins and outs of the judging criteria..( judges have a hard enough time of it.....stop baiting..and go back to your rants that make you hear your own voice.....which is what you love...and I KNOW YOU have heard that before stuie. send it to DCI....... maybe todays audience member just wants to sit and enjoy....or better yet maybe you can teach a class before each show and monitor it and then make the audience accountable for their actions.....then you can go to every corps and explain what thousands of people meant, so that they can move on from there.....thanks for clearly explaining how it works, what it all means, how people are accountable, how it benefits, what outcomes mean and how a corps moves on....thanks....i got it...so we need not move on with conversation........but i do appreciate it. 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cixelsyd Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I think ( If Im reading right , its late..lol ) you believe corps should not give up any control of their product. But to get to Flams point , he believes , it seems, that the audience should be given points in the final results and that DCI was afraid of this. I was trying to figure out why he thought this was a good idea being that very often the best corps would'nt win and was he ok with this. Just askin You think the Blue Devils very often would not have won this year if fans had input to 5% of the score? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slingerland Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) Fans get to vote with their checkbooks. That's the voting that counts, much more than scores. If you don't like BD's shows, don't buy things from them. If you love the Troopers, give them $500 a year so they can keep doing what they're doing. Fan Voting Done Right. Edited August 27, 2014 by Slingerland 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I look at this issue and I ask: "How can money be made off the idea, and who would make it". Because making money for themselves and the activity is (or should be) DCI's singular focus once it assures that its activity is providing youth with an incredible experience. Since that proviso is definitively true today as it has been since the founding, the only thing DCI should be focused on is making money. And accomplishing that goal is the only thing that can or will attract the attention of the guys making the decisions for themselves. Show them the money. Who cares if it's not a "fair" system, is that the point? DCI doesn't need a fan vote to accomplish its goals. So, let's be realistic. Perusing DCI's website I find that upwards of 400,000 fans attend live events annually. Let's say for simple math that you'd attract half of them to actually cast a vote. What if you charged $.25 per vote? That's $50,000 for the effort. To split between the "winning" corps. Even if DCI viewed it strictly as a revenue source and kept the money "for the greater good", could they build and maintain a structure of fan voting for $50,000 per year? What if you charged $1.00 per vote? What if it were included as part of the ticket price and everyone paid it. Well, you'd still have somewhere between $200,000 to $400,000 in gross revenue into the activity from fan pockets (and without sharing some of that revenue to entice fan votes, why would they pay money to vote?). Maybe DCI could get the infrastructure paid for by a corporate sponsor who wants to try out a new entertainment platform, for example, and DCI gets to keep the whole gross revenue. That's not chump-change, but is still a fraction of DCI's $10mm budget. Is that the best use for DCI's limited resources? Is it going to create harmony within the drum corps ranks? Is it enough to take DCI "big time"? Probably not. Yet, $400,000 or $500,000 is chump change to a corporation looking to innovate a new product for a bigger audience... Also on the DCI website is this: "Through the annual DCI Tour and more than 35 World Championships in 17 North American cities, Drum Corps International provides entertainment to millions through live performances and nationally-televised events." [emphasis mine] Ding! Although I think that sentence was supposed to say "...has provided...", I got to thinking... What if you ramped up fan voting to try to first capture digital viewers as well as live fans at every regional, then perhaps ramped it up to attempt get voting of every broadcast show (then increase the number of broadcast shows). Scale up the idea. Who cares if it's not "fair" voting? Again, that's not the point. Then, what if DCI actually became international and attracted groups from other countries, say, oh I don't know, an Asian country with a billion people? What if another country sent an full-sized corps to compete on the tour; do you think their fans might vote for them? What if there are a hundred-million fans worldwide because there are competing international corps on the DCI US summer tour? Buses, food trucks, 35 shows - the whole gig. Who do you think those country's fans will vote for as their favorite? And what if the corps comes from a country that values and supports youth music education AND spends tons on it locally. I don't know, maybe there's an Asian Bill Cook who would pay for the entire infrastructure just so "his" kids can watch "their" corps compete live and vote for their favorite. Heck, just getting that many people globally to watch finals live broadcast would be a cash bonanza that surely no BOD member would be against. And at $50 buck per person to watch live, how many fan votes do we need to make that amount? So, and again, I'm just thinkin'. Where's the better use of DCI's resources? Building out a voting system to a limited number of live broadcast events and, hopefully, expand it to include more events (broadcast Dublin, Ohio's show for fan vote! Yea!), all for a relatively limited, and certainly capped, audience? Or instead, attracting global interest that is, apparently, already there (System Blue [an others] anyone?], making it easy for them to join the tour and attracting their fans to watch their corps live throughout the summer for a mere $75 each? Hmm...just thinkin'. But I'm not thinking that a fan vote system is anywhere close in our future, and surely not one limited to just the US audience. Back to work... (No, really, I've got to get back to work.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Fans get to vote with their checkbooks. That's the voting that counts, much more than scores. If you don't like BD's shows, don't buy things from them. If you love the Troopers, give them $500 a year so they can keep doing what they're doing. Fan Voting Done Right. Sometimes the parallel thought pattern is remarkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I think ( If Im reading right , its late..lol ) you believe corps should not give up any control of their product. But to get to Flams point , he believes , it seems, that the audience should be given points in the final results and that DCI was afraid of this. I was trying to figure out why he thought this was a good idea being that very often the best corps would'nt win and was he ok with this. Just askin My response wasn't about the corps at all. My response was about the presenting organization. DCI. Since DCI is the one scheduling programming, organizing marketing, presenting workshops...etc etc etc. It doesn't make sense for them to give up control of their programming and product. And giving the fans a part of the judging system gives up some control over the product presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barigirl78 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I've attended a Film Festival(Tribeca) and the Audience Award is given out like this. You are given a piece of paper as you enter the theater and you give a grade for the film after you've seen it. The paper is usually a 5-point scale. They collect the papers as you exit and tally them up at the end of the festival. I've seen the movies that get the critics award and the movies that get the audience awards and I usually prefer the audience award films. I think it would be an interesting way to engage the audience. However, because the tallying can take a while, it wouldn't work for a single show. But, if you collected a lot of votes during the season and tallied them up as you go along, they could do an Audience Award at the Championships that were based on the entire season as opposed to a specific show. I think it would be fun and interesting. The only people who could vote would be paying attendees who physically fill out the ballot and hand it in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 honestly given the number of corps running camps in Texas, I doubt Crossmen would win SW, but yes, you're right. it'd be a popularity contest, not who designed and performed well I don't think it would even be a popularity contest: it would be a "whomever can organize their alumni/supporters the best" contest. When past shows have done this type of thing (was it a TOC show maybe?) I would get emails from corps I've donated do, texts from friends on staff, etc. telling me how/when to vote for them: regardless of if I was at the show or not. FWIW I don't care about the fan thing: it's kind of a pointless exercise IMO, but if it would make the majority of fans happy why not? They could just announce a winner, w/no trophy (or cost) added, and it might be pretty inexpensive to organize a cheap survey-type webpage or something to tab. a winner for votes (or would it? I honestly don't know). I've kind of always felt like this would be an easy way to placate at least some fan base, and while there will always be detractors of any change, why not try to reach out to the fans? Maybe someone who feels really strongly about it can set up an online petition to show there is large interest, contact corps Admin, and try to persuade DCI BoD to implement. If people could get Blue Stars to a few years back to propose rules that have zero chance of being approved, maybe this could work if there is actual fan support Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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