Fan Network - Why have you forsaken me?

[BRASSO]

Well, it depends on what exactly the Fan Network contract says. Who reads all that fine print when signing up? I would guess that it specifies that content will change from time to time.

That said, a change this large perhaps exceeds what the contract could reasonably be said to cover. It would seem fair to issue partial refunds based on the percentage of content removed and the number of days remaining on a subscriber's contract.

So there are about 150 days left on Fan Network contracts, and 150/365 = 41%. Multiple that by the percentage of missing shows. It seems 72 performances were removed, out of a total of 471 "Finalist" performances (including 1974 and 1981) that were previously available to general subscribers. Plus those subscribers have access to at least another 550 non-Finalist performances (from 2005-2013). Even if you count those other shows as worth only half as much each as the Finalist shows, that means the lost material totals 72/746 = 10%.

Therefore subscribers should receive a 4% discount on the on-demand portion of their purchase. Subscriptions that included live webcast costs $70 last summer, meaning subscribers would each be due something less than $2.80 in refunds.

And all that calculation would have to wait until DCI had fully determined that these shows were permanently removed from their offerings, or whether they could yet be restored before this year's subscriptions run out.

Its not in our domain however to assign value in equal amounts to each of the DCI archives components. Each buyer of a product determines for themselves the value they place on each of the various components( ie, Corps achives, DCI live shows ). Theoretically, what if a subscriber was a fan of the music of Bernstein and chose the Fan Network, and its archives to listen primarily to Corps that played Bernstein ?... or purchased FN for access to one Corps they are just exclusively interested in ? Or what if DCI decided to drop all live shows in FN during the contract period, but kept all the Finalist archived shows back to 1975 ? What if susbscribers purchased FN for just the live shows( didn't care about any of the archives ), but the live shows were deleted ? Yes, the examples I'm using might be unusual, but it illustrates how the buyers themselves all place different values on various components of FN, that an assignment of value by us is frankly not in our ( nor DCI's) domain .

Additionally, my recollection is that DCI promised access to " All DCI Finalist Corps Performances back to 1975 " ( and some from 1974 were added later to the package ). If they promised this, then it seems to me that a full and complete refund could legally be enforced, as such a promise of product delivery ( to be viewed as oftentimes as one desires during the contract term ) , in fact, is not going to be fulfilled it appears at this juncture. Again, I think its prudent to wait and see right now what DCI intends to do. They have access to legal counsel, and their legal counsel will most likely advise them here with what they need to do that will pass legal muster, and if it comes to this, a legal challenge to whatever decision they ultimately make.

Edited December 20, 2014 by BRASSO

[garfield]

Its not in our domain however to assign value in equal amounts to each of the DCI archives components. Each buyer of a product determines for themselves the value they place on each of the various components( ie, Corps achives, DCI live shows ). Theoretically, what if a subscriber was a fan of the music of Bernstein and chose the Fan Network, and its archives to listen primarily to Corps that played Bernstein ?... or purchased FN for access to one Corps they are just exclusively interested in ? Or what if DCI decided to drop all live shows in FN during the contract period, but kept all the Finalist archived shows back to 1975 ? What if susbscribers purchased FN for just the live shows( didn't care about any of the archives ), but the live shows were deleted ? Yes, the examples I'm using might be unusual, but it illustrates how the buyers themselves all place different values on various components of FN, that an assignment of value by us is frankly not in our ( nor DCI's) domain .

Additionally, my recollection is that DCI promised access to " All DCI Finalist Corps Performances back to 1975 " ( and some from 1974 were added later to the package ). If they promised this, then it seems to me that a full and complete refund could legally be enforced, as such a promise of product delivery ( to be viewed as oftentimes as one desires during the contract term ) , in fact, is not going to be fulfilled it appears at this juncture. Again, I think its prudent to wait and see right now what DCI intends to do. They have access to legal counsel, and their legal counsel will most likely advise them here with what they need to do that will pass legal muster, and if it comes to this, a legal challenge to whatever decision they ultimately make.

That was then. This is now.

The ultimate contract provision.

[TroopAlum12]

As someone mentioned earlier, there is hope. Each type of media requires a different license. I think there's a total of 8 or 9 licenses per piece that go into each show (arranging, live performance, streaming, audio downloads, video downloads, broadcast, etc.) Based on past incidents, internet streaming is the hardest one to achieve, it seems.

Long story short: If the shows are still available for purchase, this means there is still hope. And the DVDs/CDs may still go unaffected. For now, we have the fact that the streaming media was all that was pulled as of now. So we can hold on to that sliver of light.

[tesmusic]

There's a major difference between selling a DVD and CD and offering streaming content at all times. That's a whole other topic.

As for promises DCI made or we recall them making, you have a case if a promise was made, but if there is no documentation, then DCI reserves the right to make changes.

As far as the post-2000 shows not having many issues-that is blatantly false-search threads on the past few years alone.

Also keep in mind that around 2000 was when Napster brought thus whole thing into the open and people became more cautious. You can thank Metallica for that one.

[drangin]

I think Kim Jong-un has far too much influence over American media these days. All these shows were offensive to North Korea?

Edited December 20, 2014 by drangin

[Tim K]

I am not a legal expert, but I would wonder if the reason shows may be available on DVD and Blu-ray or as a purchase as an audio or video download would have to do with what is considered broadcasting. Shows being available on demand via Fan Network could constitute broadcasting which might put it in a different category than recording or public performance. Since many of the shows that have been removed are prior to Fan Network days, the original agreements may not allow this type of use. I base this on 1991 Star's show being removed but 2012 Boston Crusaders which uses many of the same pieces still seems to be available. Corps and DCI could renegotiate, but would the cost be worth it? Copyright laws are getting very specific. I had my original "ice bucket challenge" video removed from Facebook because of a violation of copyrighted material due to background music. The offending material--a car that was parked nearby playing the radio.

In the time that I started writing this, and by the time I posted it (I left my computer for a while), I see others have stated pretty much of what I said here, minus the "ice bucket" challenge.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Tim K

[tesmusic]

I am not a legal expert, but I would wonder if the reason shows may be available on DVD and Blu-ray or as a purchase as an audio or video download would have to do with what is considered broadcasting. Shows being available on demand via Fan Network could constitute broadcasting which might put it in a different category than recording or public performance. Since many of the shows that have been removed are prior to Fan Network days, the original agreements may not allow this type of use. I base this on 1991 Star's show being removed but 2012 Boston Crusaders which uses many of the same pieces still seems to be available. Corps and DCI could renegotiate, but would the cost be worth it? Copyright laws are getting very specific. I had my original "ice bucket challenge" video removed from Facebook because of a violation of copyrighted material due to background music. The offending material--a car that was parked nearby playing the radio.

In the time that I started writing this, and by the time I posted it (I left my computer for a while), I see others have stated pretty much of what I said here, minus the "ice bucket" challenge.

Many of your points are right on.

Anyone who thinks it's a simple process has no idea.

There are so many facets to copyright and usage, and the difficult thing is that it is completely different with every composer, publisher, and rights holder that one works with.

I'm not one to defend DCI on a regular basis, but in this topic, placing blame on them for these ever changing legalities is simply absurd and thoughts from uneducated people on this topic.

[wonker]

Just to clarify my comment/question, because it apparently was a little vague, I did not mean to infer that all post-2000 shows were not affected by the whole copyright/licensing issue......I am very aware of the cuts and edits that have had us all talking about this issue for years and the history of what this process has become.......rather, and I thought very specifically, was asking about the current issue in regards to yesterday's removal of product from the Fan Network.

It now appears that no shows from the 2000 and beyond packages have been removed (at least in this round of cuts???). Does that date correlate to any changes in the rights and licensing regulations or enforcement of them? Or, tie-in with any changes in DCI policy regarding acquisition of rights or vetting of their products before releasing them to the public?

I understand that many shows since the 2000 season, as currently shown both on the Fan Network and released on the DVD's, have edited content. But, does this mean that these edited versions are "safe" moving forward? Is this a matter of a reverse-grandfathering in of the newer regulations onto the older product? Or, will the ever-changing licensing landscape be able to hit the "newer" edited shows again down the road?

[tesmusic]

I understand that many shows since the 2000 season, as currently shown both on the Fan Network and released on the DVD's, have edited content. But, does this mean that these edited versions are "safe" moving forward? Is this a matter of a reverse-grandfathering in of the newer regulations onto the older product? Or, will the ever-changing licensing landscape be able to hit the "newer" edited shows again down the road?

Unfortunately nothing is guaranteed, yes there will be ever-changing issues.

The simple answer in my opinion is do whatever you can to hang onto the recordings in something than a steaming format.

Buy the legacy sets, rip streaming videos and save them into a library, whatever you can do.

Otherwise this will continue to happen.

For example, I have the full legacy set on N external hard drive, I've got nothing to worry about because they can't get to it.

But as the small print points out in the fan network, not all items will be available all the time.

[garfield]

Unfortunately nothing is guaranteed, yes there will be ever-changing issues.

The simple answer in my opinion is do whatever you can to hang onto the recordings in something than a steaming format.

Buy the legacy sets, rip streaming videos and save them into a library, whatever you can do.

Otherwise this will continue to happen.

For example, I have the full legacy set on N external hard drive, I've got nothing to worry about because they can't get to it.

But as the small print points out in the fan network, not all items will be available all the time.

So, oh Copyright-Swammi, that last makes me think that this could be vagary in, maybe, both directions. Are these new hurdles permanent? Is it possible that DCI might win a future round of negotiation and re-allow these performances?

I know nothing, but it seems that, for all but the most-wealthy of composers, these negotiations always settle on money, right?