Fan Network 2015

[Cappybara]

DCI doesn't run it. Neulion does. complaining to DCi likely won't get you far

I'm not much of an expert on Internet streaming but is Neulion also taking a crew to each show?

[Clutchtow]

I'm not much of an expert on Internet streaming but is Neulion also taking a crew to each show?

So, from my understanding, the way it works is there are 4 main "connections" between the field and your computer screen.

The first is from the camera to the internet. This is probably run by a DCI crew. This takes the data of the image and sound and connects it to the huge tangle of wires running around the US.

The second is from the internet to neulion. The feed isn't coming directly to us. It gets sent to some huge room with servers owned by neulion. There, the servers format the data to they way they want it, and then distribute it across the country.

The third is from neulion to you! This is managed by your ISP, which controls how fast data can flow to you based on how much you pay them.

The last is from your modem to your screen. This has several steps, most commonly it would go from the modem to your router to your computer to your screen. This one is pretty much under your control.

SO... The question is, which one of these people is messing up? DCI, Neulion, your ISP, or you? It seemed that on the first stream, since the audio/visual sync issues was a problem for everyone, it was either neulion or DCI's fault. Probably DCI's. The fact that it wouldn't play on mobile devices was definitely Neulions screw-up. Stuttering and freezing streams? that would be your fault or your ISP's. Same with quality issues. So basically, everyone goofed on that first stream. (Except for the high cam, that worked flawlessly for me)

So to actually answer your question, probably not. My understanding is that Neulion is only responsible for the distribution of the streams. I could be wrong though, someone can feel free to correct me if that is the case.

[Jeff Ream]

So, from my understanding, the way it works is there are 4 main "connections" between the field and your computer screen.

The first is from the camera to the internet. This is probably run by a DCI crew. This takes the data of the image and sound and connects it to the huge tangle of wires running around the US.

The second is from the internet to neulion. The feed isn't coming directly to us. It gets sent to some huge room with servers owned by neulion. There, the servers format the data to they way they want it, and then distribute it across the country.

The third is from neulion to you! This is managed by your ISP, which controls how fast data can flow to you based on how much you pay them.

The last is from your modem to your screen. This has several steps, most commonly it would go from the modem to your router to your computer to your screen. This one is pretty much under your control.

SO... The question is, which one of these people is messing up? DCI, Neulion, your ISP, or you? It seemed that on the first stream, since the audio/visual sync issues was a problem for everyone, it was either neulion or DCI's fault. Probably DCI's. The fact that it wouldn't play on mobile devices was definitely Neulions screw-up. Stuttering and freezing streams? that would be your fault or your ISP's. Same with quality issues. So basically, everyone goofed on that first stream. (Except for the high cam, that worked flawlessly for me)

So to actually answer your question, probably not. My understanding is that Neulion is only responsible for the distribution of the streams. I could be wrong though, someone can feel free to correct me if that is the case.

not sure I fully agree. the nightmare that was watching finals in 2013 was not my ISP. everyone had issues with it

[Cappybara]

So, from my understanding, the way it works is there are 4 main "connections" between the field and your computer screen.

The first is from the camera to the internet. This is probably run by a DCI crew. This takes the data of the image and sound and connects it to the huge tangle of wires running around the US.

The second is from the internet to neulion. The feed isn't coming directly to us. It gets sent to some huge room with servers owned by neulion. There, the servers format the data to they way they want it, and then distribute it across the country.

The third is from neulion to you! This is managed by your ISP, which controls how fast data can flow to you based on how much you pay them.

The last is from your modem to your screen. This has several steps, most commonly it would go from the modem to your router to your computer to your screen. This one is pretty much under your control.

SO... The question is, which one of these people is messing up? DCI, Neulion, your ISP, or you? It seemed that on the first stream, since the audio/visual sync issues was a problem for everyone, it was either neulion or DCI's fault. Probably DCI's. The fact that it wouldn't play on mobile devices was definitely Neulions screw-up. Stuttering and freezing streams? that would be your fault or your ISP's. Same with quality issues. So basically, everyone goofed on that first stream. (Except for the high cam, that worked flawlessly for me)

So to actually answer your question, probably not. My understanding is that Neulion is only responsible for the distribution of the streams. I could be wrong though, someone can feel free to correct me if that is the case.

Interesting thank for this info. I haven't bought DCI LIVE! (Yet) so I have no idea whether I would've had issues or not. I just find it a little hard to believe that all the stutters are our fault. I'm very regularly able to flawlessly load 1080p videos on YouTube. Is it possible that the wifi that the DCI crew in the stadium uses is weak and leads to the data not being transmitted properly to Neulion?

[garfield]

I'm going to give props where due, and I'm tickled to say that DCI came through for Friends members who were due FN memberships. At least at my level I get full access! Yay!

I really wanted to stay up and watch the West shows, but was sound asleep in my Eastern time zone by the first step off. Without the DVR function, what's the point of even connecting the "complimentary" entitlement I have?

I want to give credit where due and, at least, DCI gave us our due at our contributor level. I suppose I should activate it so when the shows move east I can see a couple of them. At $100 it's not a bad deal for a family of three if I catch a few shows by finals week.

[Clutchtow]

not sure I fully agree. the nightmare that was watching finals in 2013 was not my ISP. everyone had issues with it

Different platform/content distributor. That would have been DCI not having enough bandwidth, which is a problem neulion doesn't appear to have. That's the whole reason they switched i'd imagine. Like I said, if everyone has issues, its probably not your ISP or you, its probably DCI or whatever content distributer they used (Brightcove maybe?)

Interesting thank for this info. I haven't bought DCI LIVE! (Yet) so I have no idea whether I would've had issues or not. I just find it a little hard to believe that all the stutters are our fault. I'm very regularly able to flawlessly load 1080p videos on YouTube. Is it possible that the wifi that the DCI crew in the stadium uses is weak and leads to the data not being transmitted properly to Neulion?

They probably are hard lined into the stadium network. If you can watch a youtube video at 1080p, you should be able to stream from DCI Live just fine.

EDIT: Keeping in mind, those are different technologies. Watching a live stream isn't quite the same as watching a Youtube video. Youtube also has some crazy fancy algorithms that people have spent a decade on in order to stream it faster. Plus, googles content distribution network is basically in a whole different class.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Clutchtow

[drumcat]

So, from my understanding, the way it works is there are 4 main "connections" between the field and your computer screen.

The first is from the camera to the internet. This is probably run by a DCI crew. This takes the data of the image and sound and connects it to the huge tangle of wires running around the US.

The second is from the internet to neulion. The feed isn't coming directly to us. It gets sent to some huge room with servers owned by neulion. There, the servers format the data to they way they want it, and then distribute it across the country.

The third is from neulion to you! This is managed by your ISP, which controls how fast data can flow to you based on how much you pay them.

The last is from your modem to your screen. This has several steps, most commonly it would go from the modem to your router to your computer to your screen. This one is pretty much under your control.

SO... The question is, which one of these people is messing up? DCI, Neulion, your ISP, or you? It seemed that on the first stream, since the audio/visual sync issues was a problem for everyone, it was either neulion or DCI's fault. Probably DCI's. The fact that it wouldn't play on mobile devices was definitely Neulions screw-up. Stuttering and freezing streams? that would be your fault or your ISP's. Same with quality issues. So basically, everyone goofed on that first stream. (Except for the high cam, that worked flawlessly for me)

So to actually answer your question, probably not. My understanding is that Neulion is only responsible for the distribution of the streams. I could be wrong though, someone can feel free to correct me if that is the case.

I'll add some insight. I won't call them "corrections" because I am not a NeuLion expert. I would say I know a few things about Brightcove, Limelight, Akamai, and the process, so let me see if I can help a little...

As stated above, (again, at least with Brightcove) there is no "second connection". When you connect, you connect two internet connections to Akamai (or Limelight, but they didn't offer DVR at the time I last used them). So, essentially you get a solid upload line at the stadium, connect your encoding laptop machines to teh interwebs, and "push" to the CDN. Brightcove, or in this case, NeuLion, lease this from their CDN and then turn around and charge a small bandwidth premium to the individual customer. They buy bandwidth by the peta from the CDN and charge on that redistribution and storage space.

So, in fewer words, there's stadium to internet, internet to CDN servers, and CDN servers to your home. Of course, there's also from your wall/air to your device. There are lots of places where things can go wrong, and they aren't just blanket problems.

Thus, when you say "who is messing up", it can be a little more involved. For example, A/V sync could be a loop in an on-site device, or a delay at the soundboard, but because it's only on one feed, it's likely in one of two places - the encoding device, or the CDN ingestion is redistributing it with a delay. Remember that it gets one signal in, but it then "multiplexes" that high-quality stream into (i think?) 4 stream levels. If that process is jacked, the only way to fix it is to redo it from the very beginning, throw everyone off, and use a different ingestion point. Needless to say, it's rather crappy to figure that out night-of-show. In addition, the audio is likely coming from the same source, so it makes timing more likely (but not conclusively) at the multiplex. Whether that's NeuLion or their CDN partner (if they have one?) is indeterminable without some serious digging. No question the DCI team is leaning heavily. You can get away with a little sync issue when you're broadcasting soccer... not DCI stuff.

There is some concern that even when everything is going outbound perfectly, you will have issues on your device. The thing is that even the feeds are fundamentally different to your device, even at the same rate. Say for example you stream both hi-cam and multi-cam at 720p. The multicam can use over 50% more bandwidth on average than hi-cam. It can be a lot more, too. Ant-cam, as I call it, is perfectly suited for MPEG encoding. A vast majority of the screen area doesn't change, allowing the codec to take advantage of using fewer keyframes and compressing the small amount of motion into less data transmitted. Multi-cam is the opposite. The amount of motion the codec has to use to keep up with all the change is massive. Ever watch confetti on TV? Everyone's screen pixelates. The more random the movement and color change, the more the codec has to rewrite (and not reuse) when it sends a signal.

I mention all of this not as a defense, but rather to be careful in where blame is assigned. I know in my time, I made a few broadcast errors. I also know that a majority of the problems people had at the end-user level were out of my control. I also know that a level of technical problems can and do exist that are out of DCI's control... I can tell you that one of the "better" streams as loosely rated by DCP a few years ago was extraordinarily stressful as it was a backup stream where the primary fault level was something that the CDN couldn't fix for hours. I spent a vast majority of my day on the phone with people around the world eventually sorting it out... and you all had no idea at all. Thus, it goes both ways... this is not an excuse at all, and I'm sure DCI isn't looking for any. I just hope that while things may appear one way, the technical "blame" may not be so easy to point to. I understand from a consumer's point of view that often those things don't matter. But problems can come from geography, bad hops by ISPs, CDN failures... hell, I even had one site that said we were given a direct line, but failed to tell us that the line was shared by a building down the road. Suddenly, upload was poo. These things are 20x more difficult when the location changes, because each place requires you to start from scratch. This can introduce problems anywhere in the "chain". So I'd only ask that from a technical support perspective, use caution when making an absolute assumption.

Best of luck to everyone, on both sides of the feeds. :)

[Liahona]

Interesting thank for this info. I haven't bought DCI LIVE! (Yet) so I have no idea whether I would've had issues or not. I just find it a little hard to believe that all the stutters are our fault. I'm very regularly able to flawlessly load 1080p videos on YouTube. Is it possible that the wifi that the DCI crew in the stadium uses is weak and leads to the data not being transmitted properly to Neulion?

It's a whole different animal when you stream live versus play recorded YouTube videos...especially once it is buffered...then again think about the reliability of the LIVE theater broadcasts this year...I think for the most part there weren't many problems...but I did see a few theaters had outages...so whose to blame for that?....the blame game will go round and round IMO...

As far as the live stream versus fan network...the video quality itself is a higher quality IMO as well...reliability-wise...time will tell..the jury is still out on that one...

Edited June 23, 2015 by Liahona

[Clutchtow]

I'll add some insight. I won't call them "corrections" because I am not a NeuLion expert. I would say I know a few things about Brightcove, Limelight, Akamai, and the process, so let me see if I can help a little...

As stated above, (again, at least with Brightcove) there is no "second connection". When you connect, you connect two internet connections to Akamai (or Limelight, but they didn't offer DVR at the time I last used them). So, essentially you get a solid upload line at the stadium, connect your encoding laptop machines to teh interwebs, and "push" to the CDN. Brightcove, or in this case, NeuLion, lease this from their CDN and then turn around and charge a small bandwidth premium to the individual customer. They buy bandwidth by the peta from the CDN and charge on that redistribution and storage space.

So, in fewer words, there's stadium to internet, internet to CDN servers, and CDN servers to your home. Of course, there's also from your wall/air to your device. There are lots of places where things can go wrong, and they aren't just blanket problems.

Thus, when you say "who is messing up", it can be a little more involved. For example, A/V sync could be a loop in an on-site device, or a delay at the soundboard, but because it's only on one feed, it's likely in one of two places - the encoding device, or the CDN ingestion is redistributing it with a delay. Remember that it gets one signal in, but it then "multiplexes" that high-quality stream into (i think?) 4 stream levels. If that process is jacked, the only way to fix it is to redo it from the very beginning, throw everyone off, and use a different ingestion point. Needless to say, it's rather crappy to figure that out night-of-show. In addition, the audio is likely coming from the same source, so it makes timing more likely (but not conclusively) at the multiplex. Whether that's NeuLion or their CDN partner (if they have one?) is indeterminable without some serious digging. No question the DCI team is leaning heavily. You can get away with a little sync issue when you're broadcasting soccer... not DCI stuff.

There is some concern that even when everything is going outbound perfectly, you will have issues on your device. The thing is that even the feeds are fundamentally different to your device, even at the same rate. Say for example you stream both hi-cam and multi-cam at 720p. The multicam can use over 50% more bandwidth on average than hi-cam. It can be a lot more, too. Ant-cam, as I call it, is perfectly suited for MPEG encoding. A vast majority of the screen area doesn't change, allowing the codec to take advantage of using fewer keyframes and compressing the small amount of motion into less data transmitted. Multi-cam is the opposite. The amount of motion the codec has to use to keep up with all the change is massive. Ever watch confetti on TV? Everyone's screen pixelates. The more random the movement and color change, the more the codec has to rewrite (and not reuse) when it sends a signal.

I mention all of this not as a defense, but rather to be careful in where blame is assigned. I know in my time, I made a few broadcast errors. I also know that a majority of the problems people had at the end-user level were out of my control. I also know that a level of technical problems can and do exist that are out of DCI's control... I can tell you that one of the "better" streams as loosely rated by DCP a few years ago was extraordinarily stressful as it was a backup stream where the primary fault level was something that the CDN couldn't fix for hours. I spent a vast majority of my day on the phone with people around the world eventually sorting it out... and you all had no idea at all. Thus, it goes both ways... this is not an excuse at all, and I'm sure DCI isn't looking for any. I just hope that while things may appear one way, the technical "blame" may not be so easy to point to. I understand from a consumer's point of view that often those things don't matter. But problems can come from geography, bad hops by ISPs, CDN failures... hell, I even had one site that said we were given a direct line, but failed to tell us that the line was shared by a building down the road. Suddenly, upload was poo. These things are 20x more difficult when the location changes, because each place requires you to start from scratch. This can introduce problems anywhere in the "chain". So I'd only ask that from a technical support perspective, use caution when making an absolute assumption.

Best of luck to everyone, on both sides of the feeds. :)

Thanks for the clarifications and insight!

[Liahona]

Different platform/content distributor. That would have been DCI not having enough bandwidth, which is a problem neulion doesn't appear to have. That's the whole reason they switched i'd imagine. Like I said, if everyone has issues, its probably not your ISP or you, its probably DCI or whatever content distributer they used (Brightcove maybe?)

They probably are hard lined into the stadium network. If you can watch a youtube video at 1080p, you should be able to stream from DCI Live just fine.

EDIT: Keeping in mind, those are different technologies. Watching a live stream isn't quite the same as watching a Youtube video. Youtube also has some crazy fancy algorithms that people have spent a decade on in order to stream it faster. Plus, googles content distribution network is basically in a whole different class.

Which is why I don't understand why they didn't try paid content using this unbelievable backbone instead of another 3rd party operator acting as a middleman and probably charging DCI up the wazoo...