Trombones 2016

[BRASSO]

I think we're all going to disagree on this one. The purpose of drum corps has changed since then. In those days drum corps was a pastime to get kids off the street. It was an alternative to baseball, football, etc. It was often free, and voluntarily taught. It was not meant to be a refined product but instead a way to educate youth and give them something to put their energy into so they weren't off badgering Mr Wilson or graffiti-ing grocery stores.

Today, it is about creating the best possible product while educating the membership. It is about pushing your limits beyond what thought humanly possible. It has become marching music's major league. It is something you pay to do, to better yourself as a human but also as a musician. We are building youths, but in a different way. Very few, if any, come into drum corps not knowing how to play an instrument or march. The learning curve might be the same but the demand is infinitely tougher. The talent of the pool is more competitive than it ever was. You don't hear the runs and elaborate cords that are dominant of today's music head in the 80s and before. Its no longer a game of march and play, its a game of hop on one foot on in time on top of a ladder held by four color guard members being rotated like a carousel as you play a 32nd note run that crescendo's from pppp up to FFFFFFFFFFF. And do it cleanly with great intonation.

There's a reason top players (in drum corps, and in everyday life) play on top quality horns. It makes their job easier. Fast valves, slides, springs, tight tolerances, and intonation consistent in all ranges take a great musician and allow them to be an amazing musician because the musician can focus on making music and less on making a horn do what it needs to do to operate correctly. There was never a bugle built that was as amazing an instrument as the horns corps are using today. There just weren't. They hit their heyday in the late 90s, but still never worked as well or had as good an intonation as the horns manufactured now. Could Al Chez play pretty well on a DEG Bugle? Sure. Can he play better on his Yamaha Bb trumpet now? Absolutely. The horn doesn't make him work as hard for articulation or intonation. The valves are faster. The slides have better tolerances to them allowing them to move freer. All these things allow him to focus on making the music in his head, and less about making the horn operate for him.

I don't disagree with anything at all you just said now in these comments, so I'm not quite sure what I said on here on this thread that you state in your 1st sentence here that you disagree with me on... as for me, nothing you just said with these comments here is at odds with anything I have posted on this thread. Oh well.

Edited April 26, 2016 by BRASSO

[DrumManTx]

I hope and pray that the Trombone soloist from Madison last year has another solo in this year's show.....cause that guy

could straight up PLAY!!

He played in the ballad right? Totally agree.

[BRASSO]

one would have a hard time mounting an argument that 2015 DCI brass lines, top-to-bottom, sound worse than, say, 1978 brass lines top-to-bottom.

They sure would. Thats because one would have a hard time finding anyone that has ever said this. On DCP, or anywhere else, for that matter. Even the most die hard former lovers of DCI Drum & Bugle Corps that loved those 70's, 80's shows better than the ones of today, arn't making the claim that the brass lines of yesteryear had more musical talent in them than the ones of today. Heck, no Drum Corps in DCI in 1978 even had a 72-80 sized member brass line, so I really don't know where you are attempting to go with this, as frankly much of what you are saying on this thread so far on this seems not to make much sense, nor seems grounded in any reality of what 99.9 % or so of people have been saying regarding the instrument quality of today compared with earlier decades of the 70's, 80's, and the abilities of MM's back then to play them as best they could.

That said, if we change the question just a little bit and ask whether or not one likes the sound of the Bb trumpet or the soprano played in the key of G , thats really a personal choice, not a technical one. I prefer the sound of the soprano played in the key of G , because that " sound " appears richer, fuller, deeper to my ears.... and projects far, far better in open venues like outdoor stadiums, imo. The trumpet in Bb has more of a thinner, tinnier, bit more shrill sound... and better adapted to indoor venues, like concert halls,imo. Some people no doubt, personally prefer that Bb Trumpet " sound ".. which of course, is their perogative as well. But I prefer the sound of the " G's ". However, the instruments of the soprano voice in the Key of " G " were, by contrast with today's well made instruments, not as well made. I don't see much disagreement from those who are familiar with this either.

Edited April 26, 2016 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

I think we're all going to disagree on this one. The purpose of drum corps has changed since then.. It has become marching music's major league. It is something you pay to do, to better yourself as a human but also as a musician. We are building youths, but in a different way.

I'm trying to think however of what life long skill developments, college and/ or professional career advancing, etc that participation in Guard in 2015 provides a marcher than a marcher in Guard received in ( say ) 1978 ? Don't get me wrong, nothing against Guard MM's, Lord knows, the DCI judging system of today likes them better than Guard MM's in 1978. But there are no College or University degrees to be had in " Guard " ( as there is in " Music ", " Brass", "Percussion", etc ). It seems to me that the tangible and intangible benefits one got down the road from marching in Guard in 1978 are essentially no different than the potential benefits that could be derived from marching in DCI Guard today. If I am wrong on this, I would be more than willing to listen to the college degree and/ or future career producing benefits that one derives more of today from marching in Guard, than one derived in ( say ) 1978 in marching in Guard. I see little to no difference, other than the Guard MM of today pays a boatload more to participate in the Guard section of a DCI Corps, and in so doing potentially receives these acknowledged and wonderful post Guard years potential life long benefits for having done so.

Edited April 26, 2016 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

I'm trying to think however of what life long skill developments, college and/ or professional career advancing, etc that participation in Guard in 2015 provides a marcher than a marcher in Guard received in ( say ) 1978 ? Don't get me wrong, nothing against Guard MM's, Lord knows, the DCI judging system of today likes them better than Guard MM's in 1978. But there are no College or University degrees to be had in " Guard " ( as there is in " Music ", " Brass", "Percussion", etc ). It seems to me that the tangible and intangible benefits one got down the road from marching in Guard in 1978 are essentially no different than the potential benefits that could be derived from marching in DCI Guard today. If I am wrong on this, I would be more than willing to listen to the college degree and/ or future career producing benefits that one derives more of today from marching in Guard, than one derived in ( say ) 1978 in marching in Guard. I see little to no difference, other than the Guard MM of today pays a boatload more to participate in the Guard section of a DCI Corps, and in so doing potentially receives these acknowledged and wonderful post Guard years potential life long benefits for having done so.

deleted my post due to next post...sorry

Edited April 26, 2016 by GUARDLING

[C.Holland]

I'm trying to think however of what life long skill developments, college and/ or professional career advancing, etc that participation in Guard in 2015 provides a marcher than a marcher in Guard received in ( say ) 1978 ? Don't get me wrong, nothing against Guard MM's, Lord knows, the DCI judging system of today likes them better than Guard MM's in 1978. But there are no College or University degrees to be had in " Guard " ( as there is in " Music ", " Brass", "Percussion", etc ). It seems to me that the tangible and intangible benefits one got down the road from marching in Guard in 1978 are essentially no different than the potential benefits that could be derived from marching in DCI Guard today. If I am wrong on this, I would be more than willing to listen to the college degree and/ or future career producing benefits that one derives more of today from marching in Guard, than one derived in ( say ) 1978 in marching in Guard. I see little to no difference, other than the Guard MM of today pays a boatload more to participate in the Guard section of a DCI Corps, and in so doing potentially receives these acknowledged and wonderful post Guard years potential life long benefits for having done so.

i didn't address guard, because the original topic is about trombones. Which some changed it to bugles. Guard is off topic.

[BRASSO]

i didn't address guard, because the original topic is about trombones. Which some changed it to bugles. Guard is off topic.

To this extent then, the sound of the trombone instrument is probably better sounding today than in 1978... better tubing construct, materials, etc.... and the trombone players in competitive Marching Bands here in 2016 are probably better than the trombone players in Marching Bands in 1978. But thats just my guess, as I don't really know for certain. As for comparing the trombone players in Marching Band in 1978 that played another instrument in Drum Corps in 1978, I would have no direct knowledge of their typical musical abilities, but would believe that they were probably of a higher level of abilities than those who marched in Drum Corps in 1978 that did not play a Marching Band instrument .. such as that of the Trombone. Then gain, I did know a MM that played a Trombone very well in his Marching Band, but was rather an ordinary and altogether mediocre musician on the baritone Bugle in our Drum Corps. But this is all fraught with generalities re. the sound of the Trombone, and a musician's abilities on a specific instrument that we might be discussing. As for Guard, you make a valid suggestion here, imo, that the life long benefits you mentioned above in your commentary should be confined to the playing of the Trombones in Drum & Bugle Corps ( not Guard ),.. as well as the Trombone instruments" sound".... as this is the current topic at hand ( ie," the Trombone " )

Edited April 26, 2016 by BRASSO

[garfield]

We've come a long way when trombones are the biggest problem DCI has to face.

[BRASSO]

We've come a long way when trombones are the biggest problem DCI has to face.

I don't think we have even come remotely close to any consensus that " Trombones " are the biggest problem facing DCI today. As a matter of fact, I fail to see much outcry anymore at all about the use of conventional Marching Band instruments in DCI Drum Corps. The legions of former Drum & Bugle Corps fans that no longer attend shows or follow the activity anymore, might complain among themselves, but who cares in DCI or here on DCP, as those former fans are just lamenting among themselves in far away, distant places now. For the most part, the Marching Band community is seemingly overwhelming in support of the utilization of these conventional Marching Band instruments in DCI... yet, paradoxically, most of 'em are adamant that the moniker of " Drum & Bugle Corps " remain for all intents and purposes, forever, no matter if trombones, saxophones, flutes, clarinets,, etc and all the other conventional Marching Band Instruments are incorporated into current DCI competitions. Moving forward, the notion that the current scholastic Marching Band community ( that now makes up the overwhelming core of DCI's fanbase ) will somehow get a collective case of the vapors once the Woodwinds are allowed into DCI is not an assessment I share at all. While some traditionalists that still remain followers of DCI might be a bit upset, they'll be no increased rancor nor more outcries with most of the remaining DCI fans than when the Trombones, Concert French Horns, were approved for use recently. Thats my sense, anyway.

Edited April 26, 2016 by BRASSO

[Tim K]

Well, if we go back just 10 years earlier ( 40 years ) anyone in Massachusetts that advocated for " trombone use " in Drum Corps in Massachusetts would have been committed to an insane asylum. Thats because the CYO circuit had 2 separate divisions then.. in the same show.. same judges too. One division was for the Drum & Bugle Corps and the other division for the Marching Bands ( where trombones, saxophones were utilized ). Incidentally, which division do you think had the most fans, the most interest ( and by far too ) ? If you said " The Drum & Bugle Corps " Division ( the one without the trombones, saxophones, trumpets, clarinets, flutes, etc ) over that of the Marching Band Division, you go to the head of the class now with that answer, Fran.

As someone who marched in one of the CYO bands, there's no question that the drum corps had quite an appeal, but there were competitive opportunities for the top drum corps that the bands did not have. My guess is that even if there opportunities for the bands, the drum corps would still have the popular appeal, but there are a few things to keep in mind:

When the top corps went on tour, in my day Boston Crusaders and Notth Star (27th no longer competed in the circuits at that time but often performed in exhibition), attendance at circuit shows whether it be drum corps with drill teams or bands with drill teams was about the same. In the case of the average corps or band, fans were usually local people or families. The top corps drew crowds, but without them attendance did not vary all that much.

I know many of the people involved in CYO glory days, especially the priests, and bands and drum corps were founded for different reasons. Bands in general were musical units first and had a winter concert series. Drum corps did too, but it was usually a rehash of the previous summer or a preview of coming attractions. The bands were actual concerts. Also at one point, the big difference between the two was the ability to read music. For some corps, it was a youth activity with a goal of bringing everyone together. A kid who was an athlete, he/she could play a CYO sport but could also march. A non athlete could too. In many cases (though not all), the bands were formed in parishes that had schools. Public schools had bands, Catholic schools did not. As a way of keeping students in the Catholic schools, the parish offering a band was an advantage.

Many of the top corps preferred to recruit drummers from the bands rather than the drum corps because it was easier to train them for the corps due to their training. As arrangements became more advanced, some corps found the band members could learn to play a bugle in a short time, even gasp, the woodwind players. Many alums of St. Agnes Arlington, St. William, Dorchester, St. Joe's in Medford and Medway, Immaculate, Everett, and Sacted Heart, Roslindale marched with many great corps.