Discussion about order of performance


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But do you not see the self fulfilling prophecy of how this method works? Sure, anyone can tell that Madarins can't hold a candle to Bluecoats. It's the subtleties that I am referring to, which can add up over time.

If I were an innocent bystander looking at DCI, it would concern me how little change there is in the pecking order of the activity. It's frustrating as heck to try to recruit and retain elite marching members, and a lot harder to raise money. In the last two decades there is just one corps that has climbed through the ranks to elite level, that being of cours Carolina Crown. Lots of reasons for that, but that is frustrating no doubt to corps in the lower boxes.

Now maybe this activity is so unique and so demanding that you simply must have all the right stuff to compete at the elite level. That is really my concern about Bluecoats, because I look at how much it had to cost to put that show together and it is simply not financially feasible for all but a handful of organizations.

I'm not a socialist, I don't seek the level playing field at all costs. I'd rather see a Bluecoats show than not. I'd just love to see the excitement of a dark horse stalking a medal, and it seems almost absurdly unlikely under the current scenario.

I think most fans would like more competitive seasons, but the DCI corps who vote for the DCI rules and adjudication policies don't want that.

I think we're actually in a pretty competitive era of DCI right now, with 5-6 corps who could reasonably contend for a medal. It's much better than the late 90s/early 00s where nearly all the medals went to the Cadevaliers. Since the tick system was retired, most people look back on the late 80s/early 90s as the golden age of competitiveness, with Madison, SCV, Cadets, Star, Cavaliers and BD all winning titles in those years.

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Exactly! Order of performance won't affect the eventual rankings at the end of the day but may change the scores themselves the littlest bit. If a couple of corps are very tight in scoring and one hap

Order of appearance dictates how long a given corps rehearsal day. Pioneer ends their day @ 2 to be at a show by 5 to go on at 7 Blue Devils end their rehearsal day at 5 to be at a show by 8 to go o

The judge's first responsibility is to rank the group against the others appearing at the competition. Please read the sheets (these are a couple of years old but I don't think anything substantial ha

But do you not see the self fulfilling prophecy of how this method works? Sure, anyone can tell that Madarins can't hold a candle to Bluecoats. It's the subtleties that I am referring to, which can add up over time.

If I were an innocent bystander looking at DCI, it would concern me how little change there is in the pecking order of the activity. It's frustrating as heck to try to recruit and retain elite marching members, and a lot harder to raise money. In the last two decades there is just one corps that has climbed through the ranks to elite level, that being of cours Carolina Crown. Lots of reasons for that, but that is frustrating no doubt to corps in the lower boxes.

Now maybe this activity is so unique and so demanding that you simply must have all the right stuff to compete at the elite level. That is really my concern about Bluecoats, because I look at how much it had to cost to put that show together and it is simply not financially feasible for all but a handful of organizations.

I'm not a socialist, I don't seek the level playing field at all costs. I'd rather see a Bluecoats show than not. I'd just love to see the excitement of a dark horse stalking a medal, and it seems almost absurdly unlikely under the current scenario.

I know where you're coming from. Those are good sentiments. Maybe some more shuffling is a good thing, but I can tell you that come late season you will have a hard time convincing corps directors of that, especially when they have a chance to be top 12 or higher. I'm suprised the TOC shows have allowed it, but I think it's likely been a good thing.

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Actually no it wouldn't impact them in a negative way. The only limiting factor in scoring is the number 100. BD could go first in a competition this week, have a judge put them at 75, and then have everyone else below them. There's no close upper limit. In this case, I'm all for randomizing the order (at non-regionals).

However, once you get to the championships, randomizing is a very dumb idea in my opinion. Firstly, the regionals are used as a way to seed the corps much like in a sports tournament. They have earned that advantageous position. Second, scores get too close to the 100 mark and randomizing the order starts to favor the corps below the top corps. Why? Take for example 2013 Carolina Crown. They earned a perfect score in brass performance, but they also performed last on finals night. I suspect, given how close Cadets and Crown were in brass that year, that Crown would not have received that score had they performed before the Cadets. Yes, there are some outliers such as Phantom 2010 receiving a perfect score in percussion despite performing 5-6th from last, but that's a rare occurrence.

Cappy how dare you say perfect score! They achieved the maximum score lol. Ok i am just messing with ya lol. It's just that back in 2012 i congratulated BD's Guard on their perfect score finals night, and i got ripped to shreds on this site and was swiftly corrected that they got the max score. But 365 days later when Crown's brass popped a 20 on finals night those same people that lit me up was congratulating Crown on their PERFECT score in brass LMAO.

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I think most fans would like more competitive seasons, but the DCI corps who vote for the DCI rules and adjudication policies don't want that.

I think we're actually in a pretty competitive era of DCI right now, with 5-6 corps who could reasonably contend for a medal. It's much better than the late 90s/early 00s where nearly all the medals went to the Cadevaliers. Since the tick system was retired, most people look back on the late 80s/early 90s as the golden age of competitiveness, with Madison, SCV, Cadets, Star, Cavaliers and BD all winning titles in those years.

...and Phantom Regiment as well in 1996.

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Cappy how dare you say perfect score! They achieved the maximum score lol. Ok i am just messing with ya lol. It's just that back in 2012 i congratulated BD's Guard on their perfect score finals night, and i got ripped to shreds on this site and was swiftly corrected that they got the max score. But 365 days later when Crown's brass popped a 20 on finals night those same people that lit me up was congratulating Crown on their PERFECT score in brass LMAO.

Yeah in hindsight I probably should've said max instead of perfect. Saying perfect misconstrues what the 20 actually means (box 5 performance that is better than the rest of the corps in the field)

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Thanks to all of you for chiming in. As always, you guys are awesome sources of info and insight.

I might add that I recognize that, whether we like it or not, people buy tickets to entertainment events to see the stars. It's true in athletics, it's true in music, it's true in movies...and no doubt it is true in DCI. The sports leagues are very aggressive in picking the stars, and focusing all of their media power on them, because they know that's what puts butts into seats. That said, they also have learned that a successful sports league gives every franchise an equal chance to win a title.

That probably isn't realistic in DCI for a lot of reasons. I just cannot imagine how difficult and disappointing it must be to be a director at a mid-tier corps and watch so many of the young men and women whom you recruited to DCI march somewhere else and win titles.

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Anyone that tells us that performance order has little to no effect on placements and scores, would support a proposal to have all performering Corps at all competition shows ( except the Host Corps in their show ) draw lots for performance order. For Finals,have the 12 Corps that made the Finals, draw their performance order by drawing lots. If we think the scores and placements would be identical to the scores and placements of the 12 without such a change in the manner we currently select performance order, are being a bit naive, imo . Plus, we have history to guide us on such things. DCI one year DID change up the performance order, and it indeed DID shake up things up with the score and the placements. So we don't have to guess on this.. as we have a concrete historical validation of it occuring once before, when we juggled the performance order in a more random selected order basis.. Finally, ask any of the judges if they would prefer Corps draw lots for performance order at Regionals, at Quarters, Semi's, and Finals. My sense is not a single DCI judge would support a random selection proposal to determine the order of Corps before them to score and place in rankings. Not a single judge... and for obvious reasons that frankly should require no further " splainin ", imo.

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Anyone that tells us that performance order has little to no effect on placements and scores, would support a proposal to have all performering Corps at all competition shows ( except the Host Corps in their show ) draw lots for performance order. For Finals,have the 12 Corps that made the Finals, draw their performance order by drawing lots. If we think the scores and placements would be identical to the scores and placements of the 12 without such a change in the manner we currently select performance order are being a bit naive, imo . Plus, we have history to guide us on such things. DCI one year DID change up the performance order, and it indeed DID shake up things up with the score and the placements. So we don't have to guess on this.. as we have a concrete historical validation of it occuring once before, when we juggled the performance order in a more random selected order.. Finally, ask any of the judges if they would prefer Corps draw lots for performance order at Regionals, at Quarters, Semi's, and Finals. My sense is not a single DCI judge would support a random selection proposal to determine the order of Corps before them to score and place in rankings. Not a single judge... and for reasons that frankly would need no " splainin ", imo.

The great college basketball coach, Eddie Fogler, was once asked if officials are biased. He has the perfect answer:

Every official knows who is supposed to win.

:-)

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Order of appearance dictates how long a given corps rehearsal day.

Pioneer ends their day @ 2 to be at a show by 5 to go on at 7

Blue Devils end their rehearsal day at 5 to be at a show by 8 to go on at 10.

3 hours a day x 30 or so performance days is an incredible imbalance.

Order of performance has less impact on scores than most might think. I doubt everyone agrees that order of performance is a fundamental problem. Some do, but you say "most everyone would agree" and I think that is flawed thinking. Also, order of performance has little to do with expanding the activity.

There are some fluctuations with order of performance, whether it's a home show for a certain corps in which they get to perform last, or perhaps when a corps travels way out of their region (like Madison) and the show sponsors try to mix it up as a thank you for attending.

But by and large order of performance begins with rankings from last year. The regional shows begin to adjust the performance times based on what is happening during the present season, so that is good.

Judges are very good at their jobs, despite some bickering over scores, etc. BD can go on first and they are still going to win most of them. If a corps wants to adjust their performance time, they need to get better and have that show up during championship week, then the next year they have a better starting time. If your tired of a corps or two beating you and you feel it's because they get to perform after you, then you are dismissing the talents of the judges. More to the point, go get better. Period! If you're good enough it will show up on the judges sheets, and your performance order will change.

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Although there is SOME tradeoff with being able to hit the road earlier after performing, thus getting to the next site earlier, and get started rehearsing earlier the next day.

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