Carolina Crown 2017

[B-Flat]

3 hours ago, supersop said:

I know some will take issue with my previous post. Some are going to tell me that my questions have already been answered because that's the true design of the show.

 

All I can say is I don't buy it. It's a convenient excuse for weak design.

^^^This...

[pudding]

3 hours ago, supersop said:

OK.....I've been hiding for a while.   This is only the 2nd time I've weighed in this year.  Hopefully, someone at Crown will read this. Here goes.....

 

Concerns: 

1) Vocal singing

a) The First Act of the show contains no vocalization. Hence, you have a continuity issue in the story line and the flow of the show.

b) The young lady performing the singing portion of the show is doing a fine job for what she is being asked to do. However,  I'm not so sure that the Broadway/Disney style she's being asked to portray is the best fit for the show.

2) The addition of the broken yard lines that have been added to the show are very effective. However, you now run into the issue of "losing your sense of direction" but, the drill does not portray that in any way. Moving clusters through the broken line just doesn't cut it. I would suggest that if you're going to leave the drill the same then you, at the very least,  need to change the orientation of the cluster and the upper body direction of the performers. You know, like they've lost their sense of direction.

3) I know you!  Why?  You started with no storyline then introduced the storyline with the singer about losing her sense of direction and you close the show with her recognizing someone.

My first issue with this is why? Is the show title really IT IS ALZHEIMER'S? 

Secondly, how does this help tie the show together and bring things to a conclusion?

For all the incredible playing that your corps is doing, it just seems a shame that the visual program has so many holes and flaws in the concept.

Maybe these concerns have already been brought up by the judges. Who knows? If they haven't, then I hope this gives you a fresh perspective to think about for the second half of the season.

I've always been a fan of your corps and plan to be Honking very loudly by the time finals arrives. I just pray you get things worked out.

 

Btw, I'm digging some of the recent music changes.  Keep up the great work! 

Excellent breakdown, you really captured the essence of the problems that I and many others have with the show. The performers are so excellent that I want to like the show, but the design is so disjointed that I can't. The entire storyline with the vocalist seems so tacked-on and forced, and the return to the Bach is so abrupt and jarring that it's obvious that there was very little thought put into a smooth transition. Right now, the outstanding level of musicianship of the performers are carrying a poorly-designed, pretentious show masquerading as highbrow art.

[Jeffe77]

Forgive me if this has been addressed before in regards to the vocals. I have been trying to figure out what about the vocalist bothers me. It finally hit me. After the music has been recorded,  it gets mixed and mastered. Long story short, there are different steps in the mixing and mastering that brings the music to sound the way we hear it over the radio or via own music devices. When using electronics, whether it's keyboards/synths, drum pads or samples. The sounds have all gone through some of the aforementioned processes. And of course, the user can further adjust them as well. Bluecoats have demonstrated successlly the last few season when using electronics seamlessly with the corps. It doesn't seem out of place. Phantom Regiment 2010 made IMHO, great use of it with Roland Drum Pads to during the opener. Simulating a Taiko drum or something similar.

To bring home my point, the issue with live vocals:

Cavies come to mind when using sample vocals effectively with their Mad World show intro, sounded great. BD has been doing so the last few seasons, this year with the Rihanna sample. When using live vocals, it's not comparable to a sampled vocal that has gone through the aforementioned process. It seems out of place. Recordings sound the way they do (Auto-Tuning a big factor) due to tons of takes, one picks and chooses the best parts. Can't do so with live vocals. One could argue that it makes it more authentic, that sampling a vocal is a faux pas.

However, live vocals in drum corps to me will sound out of place. The ballad makes sense to use it even after what I stated, but Crown should perhaps lean on sampling her vocals or use original source for sampling the 3rd movement etc. Your thoughts?

[pudding]

1 hour ago, Jeffe77 said:

Forgive me if this has been addressed before in regards to the vocals. I have been trying to figure out what about the vocalist bothers me. It finally hit me. After the music has been recorded,  it gets mixed and mastered. Long story short, there are different steps in the mixing and mastering that brings the music to sound the way we hear it over the radio or via own music devices. When using electronics, whether it's keyboards/synths, drum pads or samples. The sounds have all gone through some of the aforementioned processes. And of course, the user can further adjust them as well. Bluecoats have demonstrated successlly the last few season when using electronics seamlessly with the corps. It doesn't seem out of place. Phantom Regiment 2010 made IMHO, great use of it with Roland Drum Pads to during the opener. Simulating a Taiko drum or something similar.

To bring home my point, the issue with live vocals:

Cavies come to mind when using sample vocals effectively with their Mad World show intro, sounded great. BD has been doing so the last few seasons, this year with the Rihanna sample. When using live vocals, it's not comparable to a sampled vocal that has gone through the aforementioned process. It seems out of place. Recordings sound the way they do (Auto-Tuning a big factor) due to tons of takes, one picks and chooses the best parts. Can't do so with live vocals. One could argue that it makes it more authentic, that sampling a vocal is a faux pas.

However, live vocals in drum corps to me will sound out of place. The ballad makes sense to use it even after what I stated, but Crown should perhaps lean on sampling her vocals or use original source for sampling the 3rd movement etc. Your thoughts?

I hear what you're saying, and there's definitely an element of truth in there. However, I think that the bigger issue here is a stylistic faux pas - as pointed out earlier, the Broadway/Disney vocal style doesn't lend itself well to drum corps idiomatically. Even within this show, I find myself much less offended by the vocals in the Akiho than I am with the Wicked. To extend your analogy to past years, I thought that Crown's use of vocals in 2013 was brilliant, and they didn't feel forced or awkward at all.

Frankly, if they got rid of the vocals in For Good, kept the ones in NO one, and got rid of the nonsense with the "I know you", I think that the vocals would end up at an appropriate level, and it would still work with their "old/new" thing. They'd obviously have to do a new segue into the Bach, or a new ending altogether, but I already think that they need to do that because right now their ending is terrible.

Edited July 21, 2017 by pudding

[rrunyon1]

As much as I love Carolina Crown, I just can't stand this show. I made a comment early on in the season and I stand by the comment, this is amateurish and at this moment in time it still is. I don't think the design for this season was at all thought out. I am just too uncomfortable with all of the nonsense going on around the players. Everything outside of the music coming out of the horns/percussion is garbage. I am so sorry to see the guard not rocked out and performing to standard. I just don't understand what they are thinking at the top, the caption heads. I am all over the map with what I am saying and how it is coming out. That is how CC makes me feel this season. There is nothing about the visual that is at all appealing and I wish they would just dump the poles. In 2009 Phantom Regiment had just been coming off of their "Spartacus" win and they dropped to 9th at finals that year. This drop was a historic occurrence for the activity. The main reason for the drop was because of design. That show was such a wreck that season so the corps dropped the design around halfway through the season and at finals it showed. I'll try to get to my point now. They are modifying the show so much so often I think that's why we are getting confused and freaked out. Maybe no one else is confused and freaked out but I'm certainly mystified. Nothing about the design is appealing and I think they don't know what to do. The main reason for it being unappealing is due to the terrible, horrible and lousy singing. It is with out question the worst focal point this organization has ever come up with. I will just come out and say it: I hate it! It is tedious and bothersome. The vocals make for the entire show being uneven. Take her out. I read one of the comments and I agree with what was said, don't use live vocals I think was the gist of the comment and I couldn't agree more. For me, I would say, just dump her and let the horn line carry us through. They have the track so find a way to insert a vocal or two using that track. 

I want to say that in this somewhat vicious comment I do not fault the horn players, the percussion units, or the young lady singing. I will say that I think the horns are doing some fantastic work out there and it is fierce. I will also say that it might be Matt's best writing ever! The issues with this show are not due to the kids or the music. I don't know what is up with CG this season either so maybe someone can enlighten me. Do they have a new leader or something and this is just first year jitters, or might it be something else? Crown's guard this year is awful and not at par. Crown is known for guard work as well as brass and for some reason guard is severely lacking. Now having said what I've said the performance in Benton, Tx. received 87.40. With that score perhaps I am missing other things. I still see a flawed design so it is going to take a lot of hours from the top to have me, feel relaxed, believe and love this show. I will grant that it is a few weeks until Finals and some really good things might occur before Indianapolis. I hope those things are fantastic and Crown does medal. Oh and the props. Gimmicks. Let the kids play their butts off. Their have been other corps' that have used props before and those corps' have either won big or tumbled. I love CC and don't want to see them trip. I just thought of something....2014 was a prop year and they dropped to 5th after winning in '13. Hahza!!!

I hope people don't start going all bonkers on me. This is simply my opinion. I wanted to share with you guys and get some feed back. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by rrunyon1
Updates

[wigwam]

1 hour ago, rrunyon1 said:

As much as I love Carolina Crown, I just can't stand this show. I made a comment early on in the season and I stand by the comment, this is amateurish and at this moment in time it still is. I don't think the design for this season was at all thought out. I am just too uncomfortable with all of the nonsense going on around the players. Everything outside of the music coming out of the horns/percussion is garbage. I am so sorry to see the guard not rocked out and performing to standard. I just don't understand what they are thinking at the top, the caption heads. I am all over the map with what I am saying and how it is coming out. That is how CC makes me feel this season. There is nothing about the visual that is at all appealing and I wish they would just dump the poles. In 2009 Phantom Regiment had just been coming off of their "Spartacus" win and they dropped to 9th at finals that year. This drop was a historic occurrence for the activity. The main reason for the drop was because of design. That show was such a wreck that season so the corps dropped the design around halfway through the season and at finals it showed. I'll try to get to my point now. They are modifying the show so much so often I think that's why we are getting confused and freaked out. Maybe no one else is confused and freaked out but I'm certainly mystified. Nothing about the design is appealing and I think they don't know what to do. The main reason for it being unappealing is due to the terrible, horrible and lousy singing. It is with out question the worst focal point this organization has ever come up with. I will just come out and say it: I hate it! It is tedious and bothersome. The vocals make for the entire show being uneven. Take her out. I read one of the comments and I agree with what was said, don't use live vocals I think was the gist of the comment and I couldn't agree more. For me, I would say, just dump her and let the horn line carry us through. They have the track so find a way to insert a vocal or two using that track. 

I want to say that in this somewhat vicious comment I do not fault the horn players, the percussion units, or the young lady singing. I will say that I think the horns are doing some fantastic work out there and it is fierce. I will also say that it might be Matt's best writing ever! The issues with this show are not due to the kids or the music. I don't know what is up with CG this season either so maybe someone can enlighten me. Do they have a new leader or something and this is just first year jitters, or might it be something else? Crown's guard this year is awful and not at par. Crown is known for guard work as well as brass and for some reason guard is severely lacking. Now having said what I've said the performance in Benton, Tx. received 87.40. With that score perhaps I am missing other things. I still see a flawed design so it is going to take a lot of hours from the top to have me, feel relaxed, believe and love this show. I will grant that it is a few weeks until Finals and some really good things might occur before Indianapolis. I hope those things are fantastic and Crown does medal. Oh and the props. Gimmicks. Let the kids play their butts off. Their have been other corps' that have used props before and those corps' have either won big or tumbled. I love CC and don't want to see them trip. I just thought of something....2014 was a prop year and they dropped to 5th after winning in '13. Hahza!!!

I hope people don't start going all bonkers on me. This is simply my opinion. I wanted to share with you guys and get some feed back. 

Maybe you aren't aware, but a lot of their guard staff left, along with a lot of vets.   So yes, the guard is in a rebuilding year, and doing great considering the challenges. 

[Flguardman]

1 hour ago, rrunyon1 said:

As much as I love Carolina Crown, I just can't stand this show. I made a comment early on in the season and I stand by the comment, this is amateurish and at this moment in time it still is. I don't think the design for this season was at all thought out. I am just too uncomfortable with all of the nonsense going on around the players. Everything outside of the music coming out of the horns/percussion is garbage. I am so sorry to see the guard not rocked out and performing to standard. I just don't understand what they are thinking at the top, the caption heads. I am all over the map with what I am saying and how it is coming out. That is how CC makes me feel this season. There is nothing about the visual that is at all appealing and I wish they would just dump the poles. In 2009 Phantom Regiment had just been coming off of their "Spartacus" win and they dropped to 9th at finals that year. This drop was a historic occurrence for the activity. The main reason for the drop was because of design. That show was such a wreck that season so the corps dropped the design around halfway through the season and at finals it showed. I'll try to get to my point now. They are modifying the show so much so often I think that's why we are getting confused and freaked out. Maybe no one else is confused and freaked out but I'm certainly mystified. Nothing about the design is appealing and I think they don't know what to do. The main reason for it being unappealing is due to the terrible, horrible and lousy singing. It is with out question the worst focal point this organization has ever come up with. I will just come out and say it: I hate it! It is tedious and bothersome. The vocals make for the entire show being uneven. Take her out. I read one of the comments and I agree with what was said, don't use live vocals I think was the gist of the comment and I couldn't agree more. For me, I would say, just dump her and let the horn line carry us through. They have the track so find a way to insert a vocal or two using that track. 

I want to say that in this somewhat vicious comment I do not fault the horn players, the percussion units, or the young lady singing. I will say that I think the horns are doing some fantastic work out there and it is fierce. I will also say that it might be Matt's best writing ever! The issues with this show are not due to the kids or the music. I don't know what is up with CG this season either so maybe someone can enlighten me. Do they have a new leader or something and this is just first year jitters, or might it be something else? Crown's guard this year is awful and not at par. Crown is known for guard work as well as brass and for some reason guard is severely lacking. Now having said what I've said the performance in Benton, Tx. received 87.40. With that score perhaps I am missing other things. I still see a flawed design so it is going to take a lot of hours from the top to have me, feel relaxed, believe and love this show. I will grant that it is a few weeks until Finals and some really good things might occur before Indianapolis. I hope those things are fantastic and Crown does medal. Oh and the props. Gimmicks. Let the kids play their butts off. Their have been other corps' that have used props before and those corps' have either won big or tumbled. I love CC and don't want to see them trip. I just thought of something....2014 was a prop year and they dropped to 5th after winning in '13. Hahza!!!

I hope people don't start going all bonkers on me. This is simply my opinion. I wanted to share with you guys and get some feed back. 

Awful is a very strong word! People are expecting them to be top knotch with a whole new staff and almost a brand new guard which is a hard task! Right now with the guards around them the guard is featured predominantly through their show which shows a lot of the content and is a little issue with crown guard, I'm sure they are aware of it and hopefully are in the works of fixing! Another thing is the performers consistency, mostly within the weapon line. I definitely can see the growth considering how young of a group they are and having a complete new staff and style. Next yr will be a big test of growth with only 8 members ageing out this yr. 

[Jeffe77]

1 hour ago, rrunyon1 said:

As much as I love Carolina Crown, I just can't stand this show. I made a comment early on in the season and I stand by the comment, this is amateurish and at this moment in time it still is. I don't think the design for this season was at all thought out. I am just too uncomfortable with all of the nonsense going on around the players. Everything outside of the music coming out of the horns/percussion is garbage. I am so sorry to see the guard not rocked out and performing to standard. I just don't understand what they are thinking at the top, the caption heads. I am all over the map with what I am saying and how it is coming out. That is how CC makes me feel this season. There is nothing about the visual that is at all appealing and I wish they would just dump the poles. In 2009 Phantom Regiment had just been coming off of their "Spartacus" win and they dropped to 9th at finals that year. This drop was a historic occurrence for the activity. The main reason for the drop was because of design. That show was such a wreck that season so the corps dropped the design around halfway through the season and at finals it showed. I'll try to get to my point now. They are modifying the show so much so often I think that's why we are getting confused and freaked out. Maybe no one else is confused and freaked out but I'm certainly mystified. Nothing about the design is appealing and I think they don't know what to do. The main reason for it being unappealing is due to the terrible, horrible and lousy singing. It is with out question the worst focal point this organization has ever come up with. I will just come out and say it: I hate it! It is tedious and bothersome. The vocals make for the entire show being uneven. Take her out. I read one of the comments and I agree with what was said, don't use live vocals I think was the gist of the comment and I couldn't agree more. For me, I would say, just dump her and let the horn line carry us through. They have the track so find a way to insert a vocal or two using that track. 

I want to say that in this somewhat vicious comment I do not fault the horn players, the percussion units, or the young lady singing. I will say that I think the horns are doing some fantastic work out there and it is fierce. I will also say that it might be Matt's best writing ever! The issues with this show are not due to the kids or the music. I don't know what is up with CG this season either so maybe someone can enlighten me. Do they have a new leader or something and this is just first year jitters, or might it be something else? Crown's guard this year is awful and not at par. Crown is known for guard work as well as brass and for some reason guard is severely lacking. Now having said what I've said the performance in Benton, Tx. received 87.40. With that score perhaps I am missing other things. I still see a flawed design so it is going to take a lot of hours from the top to have me, feel relaxed, believe and love this show. I will grant that it is a few weeks until Finals and some really good things might occur before Indianapolis. I hope those things are fantastic and Crown does medal. Oh and the props. Gimmicks. Let the kids play their butts off. Their have been other corps' that have used props before and those corps' have either won big or tumbled. I love CC and don't want to see them trip. I just thought of something....2014 was a prop year and they dropped to 5th after winning in '13. Hahza!!!

I hope people don't start going all bonkers on me. This is simply my opinion. I wanted to share with you guys and get some feed back. 

I hear what you're saying, but when almost all the visual staff and CG staff leaves off season, yes....the Guard won't be on par. But with you 100% regarding the vocals. For the record, the singer is doing a great job under very challenging circumstances.

2 hours ago, pudding said:

I hear what you're saying, and there's definitely an element of truth in there. However, I think that the bigger issue here is a stylistic faux pas - as pointed out earlier, the Broadway/Disney vocal style doesn't lend itself well to drum corps idiomatically. Even within this show, I find myself much less offended by the vocals in the Akiho than I am with the Wicked. To extend your analogy to past years, I thought that Crown's use of vocals in 2013 was brilliant, and they didn't feel forced or awkward at all.

Frankly, if they got rid of the vocals in For Good, kept the ones in NO one, and got rid of the nonsense with the "I know you", I think that the vocals would end up at an appropriate level, and it would still work with their "old/new" thing. They'd obviously have to do a new segue into the Bach, or a new ending altogether, but I already think that they need to do that because right now their ending is terrible.

Speaking of which, yes...I agree with your point in regards to design. It's definitely a huge factor. And thank you for reminding me of 2013, which I saw live a few times thanks to their west coast swing. Those vocals worked brilliantly. Maybe it's because it replicated the source material and it was woven in with the horn arrangement, as opposed to being the main feature. And for whatever reason, the ballad with the story telling worked as well.

[drumcorpsfever]

4 hours ago, sched88 said:

 

 

And this video is where  some of the angst comes from.  My goodness, that sound!  No one in DCI sounds like this!  CrownBRASS, 80 strong!   2017 is no different for the first half.  It's just the 2nd half that gets dominated by a singular voice, both in audio and visual.  It just seems out of place for Crown... but, perhaps that's the point of the deconstruction.    I just don't think there is anything about Crown - especially CrownBRASS, that needs to be deconstructed.  

[JoshClements403]

Judges disagree