3 SHADES OF BLUE and friends Denver, Co

[saxfreq1128]

7 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

Blue Devils design team knows not only how t design to the sheets, they know how to communicate what their intent is to the judges. This show is literally built to appeal to the judges, because it celebrates the history of drum corps. I mean, switching how snares hold their sticks? Who would catch that from the stands or even care? But that's what Scott and his team do, they build in all of these ideas and then tell the judges they are doing them. Again, this is what winning designers do and no one is more intentional about it than BD.

Why be cynical?

I would think that a show about the history of drum corps would be meant to appeal to... drum corps fans? And that a show packed with BD history would be meant to appeal to Blue Devils fans/alums in their anniversary year. Both categories include judges. But over the past 15+ years, judging has incentivized doing something new, not rehashing the old—so the judges' affection isn't an automatic given.

To the "who would catch that from the stands or even care" point: the entirety of DCP more or less negates that, no?  Because here we all are, catching these details, and caring/arguing about them. So the answer, again, is: drum corps fans. The people who know what they're seeing care; the people who don't enjoy the show, or not, based on whether it's entertaining. Same for every corps, every year.

BD has as much a chance to explain their show to judges as anyone else.  But this year, what's to explain, honestly? Diamond anniversary—got it. Metamophosis means change—got it. Even without knowing that, you don't need to be a truffle pig hunting for BD easter eggs to hear "Flight of the Bumblebee" and be impressed.

[MikeRapp]

Just now, saxfreq1128 said:

Why be cynical?

I would think that a show about the history of drum corps would be meant to appeal to... drum corps fans? And that a show packed with BD history would be meant to appeal to Blue Devils fans/alums in their anniversary year. Both categories include judges. But over the past 15+ years, judging has incentivized doing something new, not rehashing the old—so the judges' affection isn't an automatic given.

To the "who would catch that from the stands or even care" point: the entirety of DCP more or less negates that, no?  Because here we all are, catching these details, and caring/arguing about them. So the answer, again, is: drum corps fans. The people who know what they're seeing care; the people who don't enjoy the show, or not, based on whether it's entertaining. Same for every corps, every year.

BD has as much a chance to explain their show to judges as anyone else.  But this year, what's to explain, honestly? Diamond anniversary—got it. Metamophosis means change—got it. Even without knowing that, you don't need to be a truffle pig hunting for BD easter eggs to hear "Flight of the Bumblebee" and be impressed.

I'm not critizing the show at all. I'm stating facts. When I say it is created for judges, what I mean is, all of the judges have a history with drum corps and the Easter eggs are all going to be seen and make sense to them.

i don't catch 90% of the details, I guarantee you.

[saxfreq1128]

2 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

I'm not critizing the show at all. I'm stating facts. When I say it is created for judges, what I mean is, all of the judges have a history with drum corps and the Easter eggs are all going to be seen and make sense to them.

i don't catch 90% of the details, I guarantee you.

You don't catch 90% of the details in any show. 

But also: what's an easter egg, by definition? A gift to longtime fans—not judges. Just like easter eggs in a superhero movie are for the audience, not the critics. 

[MikeRapp]

2 minutes ago, saxfreq1128 said:

You don't catch 90% of the details in any show. 

But also: what's an easter egg, by definition? A gift to longtime fans—not judges. Just like easter eggs in a superhero movie are for the audience, not the critics. 

I'm not sure what your point is. But mine is, Blue Devils design shows that scale both to the crowd and to the judges, and they build in many details that judges can judge to add perceived difficulty and challenge. Every corps director should learn from what they do. Including Bluecoats. If you want to win scoring titles, you'd better be good at doing the things that score points.

If follow the leader drill is really hard to do well, but doing it doesn't garner much scoring cred with judges (esp if you do it over and over again) then you find another way to get there from here.

[saxfreq1128]

17 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

I'm not sure what your point is. But mine is, Blue Devils design shows that scale both to the crowd and to the judges, and they build in many details that judges can judge to add perceived difficulty and challenge. Every corps director should learn from what they do. Including Bluecoats. If you want to win scoring titles, you'd better be good at doing the things that score points.

If follow the leader drill is really hard to do well, but doing it doesn't garner much scoring cred with judges (esp if you do it over and over again) then you find another way to get there from here.

I was just responding to what read as cynicism on your end about BD deliberately appealing to judges—sorry if I'm wrong there. But this being a DCP discussion about BD... Well, you know.

But the "BD designs to the sheets" trope on DCP, which is usually accusatory, has always seemed lame to me, because what corps (especially top 6) doesn't design to the sheets? What corps doesn't already, per your post, think they're doing what it takes to score points? It's just odd advice, to me. 

What other corps need to learn from BD is what they've already learned and already know. Invent a unique style, double down on it, make it difficult, perform the hell out it. That's what explains the ascendance of not only Crown and Bloo, but also, since 2000, Cavaliers and BD. 4 corps, 4 styles, 4 ways of winning. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by saxfreq1128

[MikeRapp]

6 minutes ago, saxfreq1128 said:

I was just responding to what read as cynicism on your end about BD deliberately appealing to judges—sorry if I'm wrong there. But this being a DCP discussion about BD... Well, you know.

But the "BD designs to the sheets" trope on DCP, which is usually accusatory, has always seemed lame to me, because what corps (especially top 6) doesn't design to the sheets? What corps doesn't already, per your post, think they're doing what it takes to score points? It's just odd advice, to me. 

What other corps need to learn from BD is what they've already learned and already know. Invent a unique style, double down on it, make it difficult, perform the hell out it. That's what explains the ascendance of not only Crown and Bloo, but also, since 2000, Cavaliers and BD. 4 corps, 4 styles, 4 ways of winning. 

Blue Devils absolutely does deliberately appeal to the judges. They do it better than anyone else in the activity, and the proof is the last decade of gold medals. You may choose to see that as a criticism, but it's a statement of what I think is pretty clear fact. And I think it is a clear statement of respect. 

Everything else you say I totally agree with. 

There was a time not long ago in which if I were introducing someone to drum corps, I would have them watch Blue Devils, maybe Cadets. In the 80s it would be Cavaliers. Now, I am just as likely to point them to Carolina Crown, Bluecoats and SCV. Each has in essence done what Blue Devils have mastered, which is carve out a unique style and direction. What they have not yet done is systematically build in multiple scoring concepts that build their rep with judges, at least at the level Blue Devils do.

What is difficult about drum corps for me, having worked in performing arts my whole career, is that in music and drama, what is "gotten" by the crowd on the stage live is all that matters. And that is not the case with drum corps. That makes it hard to understand why one corps scores better than another.

And as the activity grows, it will most certainly grow with people who have precisely no clue about the history of drum corps, and really don't care about how someone grips a drum stick. Transparency is the key at dci. They have to get proactive about explaining the whys of scoring. Otherwise, people will get frustrated, and not be as convinced as we would like them to be that performance is all that matters.

[sched88]

5 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

Blue Devils absolutely does deliberately appeal to the judges. They do it better than anyone else in the activity, and the proof is the last decade of gold medals. You may choose to see that as a criticism, but it's a statement of what I think is pretty clear fact. And I think it is a clear statement of respect. 

Everything else you say I totally agree with. 

There was a time not long ago in which if I were introducing someone to drum corps, I would have them watch Blue Devils, maybe Cadets. In the 80s it would be Cavaliers. Now, I am just as likely to point them to Carolina Crown, Bluecoats and SCV. Each has in essence done what Blue Devils have mastered, which is carve out a unique style and direction. What they have not yet done is systematically build in multiple scoring concepts that build their rep with judges, at least at the level Blue Devils do.

What is difficult about drum corps for me, having worked in performing arts my whole career, is that in music and drama, what is "gotten" by the crowd on the stage live is all that matters. And that is not the case with drum corps. That makes it hard to understand why one corps scores better than another.

And as the activity grows, it will most certainly grow with people who have precisely no clue about the history of drum corps, and really don't care about how someone grips a drum stick. Transparency is the key at dci. They have to get proactive about explaining the whys of scoring. Otherwise, people will get frustrated, and not be as convinced as we would like them to be that performance is all that matters.

While I would never notice how someone grips their drum stick (as I know nothing about drum technique), I think it is cool that they pay attention to the most minute details.  It may not mean anything to me, but it could mean something to the performers who now have a small link to their corp's history. I usually find out things like that after the season but always appreciate how the designers of the shows integrate small details that relate to their shows even though I never notice them.

[MikeRapp]

Let me say this before things go in a different direction.

Every corps can learn something from Blue Devils as far as how the think through and design shows. On every and all levels. I sense that some other corps are getting it, including Boston Crusaders. I continue to be in awe of their organizational culture, and how cleanly and clearly their intent makes it into the kids and onto the field.

[superOOk]

9 hours ago, Jeffe77 said:

 

 

Yep, the season is over. 

 

Lots of wishcasting going on, definitely. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by superOOk

[BoaDci]

20 minutes ago, superOOk said:

Lots of wishcasting going on, definitely. 

Eh, Bluecoats can come back.  Im not gonna lie, a 1.15 gap is not an easy one to overcome, but it could be done.   I think Bloo kinda shot themselves in the foot by coming out with such a refined show.  I feel the show has peaked.  I think the staff will probably feel that too, despite Bloo being *slightly* new to championship level competition, the staff isnt.  I expect many new changes to come out of Canton, many people declaring Bloo out of the fight, but I couldnt disagree more.  This will push them, and I still see potential for that ballad.

 

Side note: Do you guys think Bloo is suffering from prop coverage?